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Al-Jazari

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Re: Al-Jazari

#121
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point isn't that there are many non-Muslim Arab scholars, it's that a lot of the greatest Muslim scholars at the time weren't actually of Arab origin. e.g. Ibn Sina and Al-Ghazali were both of Persian origin (although the lingua franca was Arabic). Islam was the catalyst of change in the 7th century, I don't see how that could be denied. Yes, it was predominately Arabs that brought it outside the Peninsula but the…

"As such, they stated (against the laws of Islam) that non-Arab converts to Islam still need to pay the same amount as they were paying before they embraced Islam. Naturally, this led to a lot of resentment amongst the new non-Arab Muslims who would later support the Abbasid rebellion against the Umayyads." First the Jizya was not a Tax payed because they weren't Muslims. It was payed for everyone who didn't particip…

The jizya was payable by non-Muslims dhimmis living in an Islamic state. I don't know of any requirements that had to do with participating in the military, as there were non-Muslims citizens who fought alongside the Muslims (e.g. Christians battling in the Ottoman armies). The only thing I've heard is that the jizya is to refunded if the Muslims fail to defend the non-Muslims paying jizya if they're attacked. Not sure how accurate that is though.

Re: Al-Jazari

#122
post #19

The Islamic Golden Age is pretty fantastic, not the first time I heard about it and usually a cause of pride among my muslim friends (and for good reason). Too bad we're witnessing the Islamic Dark Ages right now.

To use strokes so broad that any historian would like to harm me... what happened was basically that the Islamic world came up against the Crusades, and with Catholics murdering them with terrible savagery, they decided to seal themselves off from the world. And in that seclusion they missed out on the most important development in human history - The Enlightenment. Possible the greatest achievement of The Enlightenm…

'Catholics' didn't murder anyone, since they didn't exist yet. The third crusade was hundreds of years before the protestant reformation. The Crusaders were simply Christians.

Re: Al-Jazari

#123
post #64
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, a Muslim scholar in Persia could be seen as a Persian scholar or a Muslim scholar. However, Arabs often end up looking at their contributions as Islamic Contributions, or rather Arab-Islamic dismissing non-Muslim Arabs. To your point, there were many non-Muslim Arab scholars.

My point isn't that there are many non-Muslim Arab scholars, it's that a lot of the greatest Muslim scholars at the time weren't actually of Arab origin. e.g. Ibn Sina and Al-Ghazali were both of Persian origin (although the lingua franca was Arabic). Islam was the catalyst of change in the 7th century, I don't see how that could be denied. Yes, it was predominately Arabs that brought it outside the Peninsula but the…

*Bukhara is in modern-day Uzbekistan

Re: Al-Jazari

#124
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Enlightenment is a direct consequence of the Protestant Reformation that preceded it a few centuries prior. The key ideas of Protestantism was that faith should be a) based on reason and b) involve a direct communion with God, without intervening priests, ritual or hierarchy. If this sounds appealing to you, you are basically a Protestant, possibly a post-God Protestant aka "atheist"/"agnostic"/"secular". In Cath…

When you talk about protestantism what exactly are you referring to? There are many, many variations/denominations. Some are rational like you describe, others are nuts. Same goes for any religion and even the people within a religion. There is a broad spectrum of catholics. Some rational, some nuts. In my experience people of protestant denominations tend to be more irrational/faith focussed than catholics who tend…

He is talking about lutherianism and calvinism (scnadinavia, north germany, early «pilgrims»).

And this is an essay about capitalism and protestantism that can be paradoxal (how believing in predestination makes you fight against the odds). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Sp...

Re: Al-Jazari

#125
post #106
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. The existence of God is a given. Science does nothing to prove or disprove His existence and probably never will. We are constrained after all by the limits of our universe. The purpose of science then is to help reveal the meaning of the Qur'an, (and the other religious texts) and by extension man's purpose. So if we now know, for example, that the world was not created in 7 days, then what is it actuall…

> The existence of God is a given. Science does nothing to prove or disprove His existence and probably never will. That completely depends on what you define "God" to be. If you define "God" to be the being named as such described in the Quran then scientific knowledge most definitely contradicts with that. > So if we now know, for example, that the world was not created in 7 days, then what is it actually that the…

  > The existence of God is a given. Science does nothing to prove or disprove His existence and probably never will.

  That completely depends on what you define "God" to be. If you define "God" to be the being named as such described in the Quran then scientific knowledge most definitely contradicts with that.
Yes, I was referring to God as described in the Qur'an, but He's not described as a "being" and He's not really "defined" at all because He's beyond definition. The nearest thing you get to a definition is: "God is greater". The Qur'an is probably most explicit about this but the theme is current in all Abrahamic religions. The Holy Trinity, for example, is a deliberate paradox.

I think part of what makes these discussions hard is that the nature of God is misunderstood. If you think that current scientific knowledge contradicts the existence of God then I think you are one of those who misunderstand. What experiment can possibly be performed to determine the existence of a presence that has no measurable attributes?

I don't see how physics is going to get us there. Neuroscience might insomuch as we might determine the nature of our perception of God, but I doubt even this would resolve anything. For example, if we discovered that belief in God is due to a chemical imbalance in the brain, atheists would say that it proves that belief is just a freak of evolution, whilst monotheists would claim that freaks of evolution, like everything else, are God's creation and a part of His purpose.

  The problem is that the "What is it actually that the creation myth is trying to tell us?" is a textbook begging the question fallacy. The same fallacy that underlies all of the pseudoscience done under the theology umbrella. It is the wrong question to ask.

  Critical thinkers (which is a superset of scientists) should instead ponder the question "is the creation myth trying to tell us something in the first place?"
Why not ponder both? I personally have no issue with this.

  Unfortunately, pondering that question is dangerous and answering it with "no" implies apostasy under nearly all religions...(and the threat of death from Islam)
I take your point here. Personally I think this is more about societal control than about Islamic teaching, mostly because the verse that provides justification for death for apostasy just makes no sense when read out of context (at least I don't get it).

It is important to realise that many of the Qur'anic texts are referring to specific groups of people in a particular time and place. If you try to interpret them without that context you'll find yourself at best mislead and at worst tied in a tangle of contradictions.

With all that said, it's pretty obvious that this is one of the first wildcards that is reached for whenever someone wants a good slaughter. Around the world currently, Moslems are using it as a way to justify killing other Moslems.

That said, you can find justification for genocide and oppression everywhere, and not just limited to the religious. You should read what Darwin had to say about Negros sometime. It makes uncomfortable reading, and it was all backed by science.

Re: Al-Jazari

#126
post #113
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The existence of God is a given. Science does nothing to prove or disprove His existence and probably never will. That completely depends on what you define "God" to be. If you define "God" to be the being named as such described in the Quran then scientific knowledge most definitely contradicts with that. > So if we now know, for example, that the world was not created in 7 days, then what is it actually that the…

>If you define "God" to be the being named as such described in the Quran First thing do you know arabic? Second have you read the Quran translation if you don't know arabic? Third, have you gone through all the verses personally in the Quran that "define" "God"? If you haven't done any these, how can you come to that conclusion. Doesn't that go against the scientific method which you seem to quote so much. For someo…

The Quran sure makes a lot of basic scientific errors for supposedly being the word of an infallible god: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran

> The Quran has a precise description of people like you - though subjective, very eerily objective. It still makes much more sense than you. Rough english translation in the literal sense and also metaphorically "Deaf, dumb, blind.."

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran#Non...

Re: Al-Jazari

#127
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To use strokes so broad that any historian would like to harm me... what happened was basically that the Islamic world came up against the Crusades, and with Catholics murdering them with terrible savagery, they decided to seal themselves off from the world. And in that seclusion they missed out on the most important development in human history - The Enlightenment. Possible the greatest achievement of The Enlightenm…

The Enlightenment is a direct consequence of the Protestant Reformation that preceded it a few centuries prior. The key ideas of Protestantism was that faith should be a) based on reason and b) involve a direct communion with God, without intervening priests, ritual or hierarchy. If this sounds appealing to you, you are basically a Protestant, possibly a post-God Protestant aka "atheist"/"agnostic"/"secular". In Cath…

I think Rene Descartes would take great issue with you.
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