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Al-Jazari

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Re: Al-Jazari

#91

Post by Jayd2014 »

nraf wrote: post #64
nayefc wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, a Muslim scholar in Persia could be seen as a Persian scholar or a Muslim scholar. However, Arabs often end up looking at their contributions as Islamic Contributions, or rather Arab-Islamic dismissing non-Muslim Arabs. To your point, there were many non-Muslim Arab scholars.

My point isn't that there are many non-Muslim Arab scholars, it's that a lot of the greatest Muslim scholars at the time weren't actually of Arab origin. e.g. Ibn Sina and Al-Ghazali were both of Persian origin (although the lingua franca was Arabic). Islam was the catalyst of change in the 7th century, I don't see how that could be denied. Yes, it was predominately Arabs that brought it outside the Peninsula but the…

"As such, they stated (against the laws of Islam) that non-Arab converts to Islam still need to pay the same amount as they were paying before they embraced Islam. Naturally, this led to a lot of resentment amongst the new non-Arab Muslims who would later support the Abbasid rebellion against the Umayyads."

First the Jizya was not a Tax payed because they weren't Muslims. It was payed for everyone who didn't participate in Islamic military. Think of it like a Latino living in the US and paying a fee (passport fees, green card fees..etc) for not participating in US military. Non-Muslim benefited from the same as Muslims in terms of public social help. Secondly, Zakat can be sometimes higher than the Tax paid by non-Muslims. Depending on how much you own.

Re: Al-Jazari

#92

Post by nimir »

w1ntermute wrote: post #5

What alphabet is used for the letters in the diagrams[0]? It's not Arabic, and it looks sort of like Greek (or maybe Phoenician), but different. 0. Such as this one: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Al-jazari...

I think they are numbers, more specifically showing device dimensions & others may refer to some formulas .

The Arabic notation for numbers as we know it now (1,2,3 ..etc) wasn't yet formed! i suppose!!

You will find most of the mentioned symbols in this image showing the developing of numbers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_numerals#mediaviewer/Fil...

Note: (in the image the development in vertical, first line lists numbers from 1 to 10)

Re: Al-Jazari

#93

Post by tinco »

4891 wrote: post #80
otakucode wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To use strokes so broad that any historian would like to harm me... what happened was basically that the Islamic world came up against the Crusades, and with Catholics murdering them with terrible savagery, they decided to seal themselves off from the world. And in that seclusion they missed out on the most important development in human history - The Enlightenment. Possible the greatest achievement of The Enlightenm…

The Enlightenment is a direct consequence of the Protestant Reformation that preceded it a few centuries prior. The key ideas of Protestantism was that faith should be a) based on reason and b) involve a direct communion with God, without intervening priests, ritual or hierarchy. If this sounds appealing to you, you are basically a Protestant, possibly a post-God Protestant aka "atheist"/"agnostic"/"secular". In Cath…

Thanks for that angle, my fathers family is protestant, as most are in the north of The Netherlands, and I never identified much with any religion at all. I feel this held me back when trying to convey my belief system to theists.

With the angle of protestant beliefs I can perhaps just convince them of their value, and let them figure out the rest on their own.

Re: Al-Jazari

#94

Post by basisword »

4891 wrote: post #80
otakucode wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To use strokes so broad that any historian would like to harm me... what happened was basically that the Islamic world came up against the Crusades, and with Catholics murdering them with terrible savagery, they decided to seal themselves off from the world. And in that seclusion they missed out on the most important development in human history - The Enlightenment. Possible the greatest achievement of The Enlightenm…

The Enlightenment is a direct consequence of the Protestant Reformation that preceded it a few centuries prior. The key ideas of Protestantism was that faith should be a) based on reason and b) involve a direct communion with God, without intervening priests, ritual or hierarchy. If this sounds appealing to you, you are basically a Protestant, possibly a post-God Protestant aka "atheist"/"agnostic"/"secular". In Cath…

When you talk about protestantism what exactly are you referring to? There are many, many variations/denominations. Some are rational like you describe, others are nuts. Same goes for any religion and even the people within a religion. There is a broad spectrum of catholics. Some rational, some nuts.

In my experience people of protestant denominations tend to be more irrational/faith focussed than catholics who tend to question more. An example is that in my country the people trying to prevent gay marriage are protestant and believe homosexuality an abomination (because of bible teachings) whereas the catholics (and some more rational protestants) want to legalise it (obviously not priests/bishops etc. but the politicians involved in the decision making).

I guess my point is that when it comes to religion every single person has slightly different beliefs or puts slightly more emphasis on some beliefs over others.

Re: Al-Jazari

#95

Post by sspiff »

otakucode wrote: post #66
Nux wrote: post #19

The Islamic Golden Age is pretty fantastic, not the first time I heard about it and usually a cause of pride among my muslim friends (and for good reason). Too bad we're witnessing the Islamic Dark Ages right now.

To use strokes so broad that any historian would like to harm me... what happened was basically that the Islamic world came up against the Crusades, and with Catholics murdering them with terrible savagery, they decided to seal themselves off from the world. And in that seclusion they missed out on the most important development in human history - The Enlightenment. Possible the greatest achievement of The Enlightenm…

I think the crusades weren't as bad for Islamic development as we like to believe. The Mongol invasions which happened around the time of the last serious Crusades in the Middle East probably did more lasting damage.

The cultured Islamic states were basically conquered by nomadic pagan hordes, while at the same time being battered by the crusades. For instance, look at the sack of Baghdad by Genghis Khan - a major center of science and learning at that time.

Eventually the nomads - Mongols and Turkic tribes - eventually settled down and converted, but a lot was lost and the focus on discovery and science never reached the same level again.

(Note: this is not historical revisionism where I'm trying to minimize the evil that were the crusades. I'm not saying the crusades weren't really really bad, they were. I'm just saying the Muslims were capable of repelling the Christian invasions and retake lost territories without being damaged beyond repair. At the same time, a lot of those who fell to Mongol expansion were wiped of the map for good or reduced to tributary kingdoms.)

Re: Al-Jazari

#96

Post by JonnieCache »

walterbell wrote: post #40

Can anyone recommend books on the cross-cultural history of mathematics? I've found these: 1) Georges Ifrah, "Universal History of Numbers", http://www.amazon.com/Universal-History-Numbers-Prehistory-I... "the first complete account of the invention and evolution of numbers the world over ... Dubbed the "Indiana Jones of numbers," Georges Ifrah traveled all over the world for ten years to uncover the little-known det…

You'd certainly find something to interest you in the Ascent Of Man documentary series, although it covers many other areas.

Cosmos was based on it. Potentially the greatest television programme ever IMO.

Re: Al-Jazari

#97

Post by skrebbel »

throwaway283719 wrote: post #89
maximumoverload wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Monotheistic religions, atleast the unfabricated Ummmm. Are there any unfabricated religions?

I think the majority opinion is that there is exactly one unfabricated religion.

And on the sixth day, God fabricated man.

Re: Al-Jazari

#98

Post by lotsofmangos »

tinco wrote: post #93
4891 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Enlightenment is a direct consequence of the Protestant Reformation that preceded it a few centuries prior. The key ideas of Protestantism was that faith should be a) based on reason and b) involve a direct communion with God, without intervening priests, ritual or hierarchy. If this sounds appealing to you, you are basically a Protestant, possibly a post-God Protestant aka "atheist"/"agnostic"/"secular". In Cath…

Thanks for that angle, my fathers family is protestant, as most are in the north of The Netherlands, and I never identified much with any religion at all. I feel this held me back when trying to convey my belief system to theists. With the angle of protestant beliefs I can perhaps just convince them of their value, and let them figure out the rest on their own.

You may find John Gray interesting. His view is very roughly that secular humanism and the ideals of the enlightenment, especially the idea that moral and intellectual progress should correlate, are extensions rather than disownments of religious dogma.

Here's a taste of his kind of take on things - http://www.newstatesman.com/ideas/2009/12/past-decade-world-...

I would strongly recommend his book Straw Dogs, though it is very polemic in style.

Re: Al-Jazari

#99

Post by guard-of-terra »

otakucode wrote: post #66
Nux wrote: post #19

The Islamic Golden Age is pretty fantastic, not the first time I heard about it and usually a cause of pride among my muslim friends (and for good reason). Too bad we're witnessing the Islamic Dark Ages right now.

To use strokes so broad that any historian would like to harm me... what happened was basically that the Islamic world came up against the Crusades, and with Catholics murdering them with terrible savagery, they decided to seal themselves off from the world. And in that seclusion they missed out on the most important development in human history - The Enlightenment. Possible the greatest achievement of The Enlightenm…

Islamic world was heavily based on trade. As such, it never sealed itself from customers.

My take is - their world was destroyed by railroads, mass production, steam ships. Their skill set at hauling wares using camels and bazaars was no longer in demand, and trade routes went elsewhere.

Re: Al-Jazari

#100

Post by thesz »

otakucode wrote: post #66
Nux wrote: post #19

The Islamic Golden Age is pretty fantastic, not the first time I heard about it and usually a cause of pride among my muslim friends (and for good reason). Too bad we're witnessing the Islamic Dark Ages right now.

To use strokes so broad that any historian would like to harm me... what happened was basically that the Islamic world came up against the Crusades, and with Catholics murdering them with terrible savagery, they decided to seal themselves off from the world. And in that seclusion they missed out on the most important development in human history - The Enlightenment. Possible the greatest achievement of The Enlightenm…

How was it possible for them to seal themselves from outside world where they controlled territory much bigger than Europe?

I cannot agree with your attribution of Islam turn to itself to Crusades.

I think that it is an inherent property of Islam. The only science allowed is one that prove existence of Allah. As most sciences are not concerned with existence of Allah, they gradually get shut down and only theology remains.

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