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I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays

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Re: I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays

#191

Post by soneca »

morgante wrote: post #89
soneca wrote: post #5

I have several friends here in Brazil that were accepted in top USA MBAs. All of them are very smart, but all of them hired a consultant to help with admission process. No one hired a ghost writer, all of them wrote their own essays, but in all cases the consultant asked them to rewrite 5 or 6 times, at least. There it is where it seems to exist the ethical line: ghost writer, no good; rewrite yourself until every si…

> No one hired a ghost writer, all of them wrote their own essays, but in all cases the consultant asked them to rewrite 5 or 6 times, at least. There it is where it seems to exist the ethical line: ghost writer, no good; rewrite yourself until every single sentence is exactly like the consultant wants, good. That's definitely where the ethical line is, and makes total sense. Nearly all professional writing you read…

I think you are heavily underestimating the interference the consultant has on the essay. Believe me, it is not even close of an editor (of friends and family proof reading). It is not a "read over".

It is more like this: the consultant make the interview, just like the ghost writer, to know what to write about. Then the consultant tells the applicant to write about "this, this and that. In this way, and don't forget to mention this and this".

Then the aplicant write it. The consultant read it all and says: "this sentence is out of place, you don't need this one, you must include another one on this paragraph". And this go on and on, 5, 6 or even 10 times. Keep in mind that these are essays of one or two pages. The end result has nothing to do with any original writing from the applicant. It is more like a dictation.

I hope you can see the difference.

Re: I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays

#192

Post by JoeAltmaier »

soneca wrote: post #191
morgante wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one hired a ghost writer, all of them wrote their own essays, but in all cases the consultant asked them to rewrite 5 or 6 times, at least. There it is where it seems to exist the ethical line: ghost writer, no good; rewrite yourself until every single sentence is exactly like the consultant wants, good. That's definitely where the ethical line is, and makes total sense. Nearly all professional writing you read…

I think you are heavily underestimating the interference the consultant has on the essay. Believe me, it is not even close of an editor (of friends and family proof reading). It is not a "read over". It is more like this: the consultant make the interview, just like the ghost writer, to know what to write about. Then the consultant tells the applicant to write about "this, this and that. In this way, and don't forget…

Haven't you described a copy editor? That's their job. Its common everywhere (where people can afford one)

Re: I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays

#193

Post by heterogenic »

dd367 wrote: post #151
heterogenic wrote: post #116

It's interesting that one of the only Ivy programs which is essentially immune to this gaming of the system is Harvard Business School, which allows only one semi-optional free-form essay ("What else would you like us to know?":( http://www.hbs.edu/mba/admissions/application-process/Pages/... ) and requires a follow-up letter to every in-person interview. The irony of course is that the scions of empires and children…

> It's interesting that one of the only Ivy programs which is essentially immune to this gaming of the system is Harvard Business School Having known many peers at HBS, I highly doubt the truth of your claim. It seems extremely biased based on your own background. Do you have any evidence?

Evidence of what?

You can see the admissions essay requirements on the linked page.

Re: I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays

#194

Post by soneca »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #192
soneca wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are heavily underestimating the interference the consultant has on the essay. Believe me, it is not even close of an editor (of friends and family proof reading). It is not a "read over". It is more like this: the consultant make the interview, just like the ghost writer, to know what to write about. Then the consultant tells the applicant to write about "this, this and that. In this way, and don't forget…

Haven't you described a copy editor? That's their job. Its common everywhere (where people can afford one)

Well, I did my best to desribe how this is different from a copy editor. But it looks like it wasn't enough.

Re: I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays

#195

Post by foobarqux »

michaelt wrote: post #174
foobarqux wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find these admissions games silly too but what process could you use that is ungameable and can filter or rank candidates?

Standardised tests administered in exam conditions. Admittedly it's not a perfect system, but if the existing system is admission essays written by ghostwriters, I'd say it'd be an improvement.

Most kids still think the SATs are an IQ test. Rich kids know how much you need to prepare and often start years in advance.

Re: I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays

#196

Post by walshemj »

lmm wrote: post #175
WildUtah wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oxford and Cambridge professors are conducting multiple technical interviews with each candidate for centuries for both domestic and international students. And today C and O admit based on comprehensive objective tests just like almost all of the world's elite universities outside the USA. US universities could avail themselves of that system, if their priority were academic quality or equality and fairness.

> And today C and O admit based on comprehensive objective tests just like almost all of the world's elite universities outside the USA. Huh? Qualified students are invited for a subjective interview, and then based on the results of this about half of them are given offers.

And there is a cottage industry in helping students perform well in those interviews its why public schools who know how the game is played do so well in getting their students into Oxbridge.

I know that even back in the 70's our head of 6th form at a comprehensive helped the brighter students cram for Oxbridge - that was when you had to have a Latin O level to get in.

Re: I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays

#197

Post by vorg »

lmm wrote: post #172
gaoshan wrote: post #138

She wrote an essay for a Chinese student about her mother washing clothes in a laundromat, leaving them to run errands and returning to find the clothes stolen. While leaving one's belongings unattended in a public place in China would indeed likely result in them being taken (and no one in China would do such a thing expecting anything different), China doesn't have laundromats. Never has. Not that anyone involved s…

I went to a laundromat in Shanghai once. Maybe they only exist around the trendy western-style apartment neighbourhoods, but they do exist.

They exist inside and around every university and college throughout the Mainland, though not on the street front. You go up the stairs to the 3rd floor, give your bag of washing and 10 rmb to the attendant who tears a playing card in half, gives you one half and staples the other onto your bag. Go back 2 days later for your washed, dried, and folded clothing.

Re: I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays

#198

Post by rwmj »

1337biz wrote: post #156
ghshephard wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a friend who got her degree from UC Berkeley, and maybe wrote 5-10% of her work, she had other people (Friends, Lovers, colleagues) write all the others - she was a master of manipulation. Who is to say that the valuable skill she developed wasn't her delegation and management skills, and that those were far more important in the long term than her ability to wax poetically about Plato's Republic? The fact that…

How did it turn our for her? Is that strategy working for her after college as well?

It's a classic sign of sociopathy, so at a guess she's either a CEO or in prison.

Re: I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays

#199

Post by rwallace »

WoodenChair wrote: post #39
jurassic wrote: post #34

Really interesting piece. In my post-college lull, I was once in a major financial bind and ended up doing a brief stint as an academic ghostwriter. I wrote term papers, not admission essays, for a ghostwriting service over a period of about 2 months. The work was easy and the money was good. I felt pretty guilty doing the work at first, but I quickly realized that most of the assignments were so banal that I don't t…

I really appreciate your honesty and the knowledge you shared here, but I fear your rationalizations about why what you did is not unethical are just that - rationalizations. It's wrong to do others work for them and let them represent it as their own, no matter how mundane the subject matter. It lets them receive qualifications that they didn't earn and others who want those qualifications in competition with them,…

It's okay to point fingers at unethical behavior. It's not okay to do it that selectively.

As someone reading about this from the other side of the Atlantic, what I'm seeing is an entire system that's corrupt from the top down, with the sort of crazily ridiculous levels of corruption I'm used to reading about in the most dysfunctional of Third World dictatorships. Frankly, unless radical changes are made, I wouldn't be optimistic about how long a society like that can keep coasting along on the momentum of past glory. Ghostwritten essays are the least of the bad behavior generated by the system that creates such terrible incentives.

If you want to call out the unethical behavior of the ghostwriters, fine, but if you want to have a leg to stand on in doing so, do it in the context of also calling out the rotten system that creates their jobs.

Re: I Ghostwrite Chinese Students' Ivy League Admissions Essays

#200

Post by hnnewguy »

morgante wrote: post #178
cgio wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's wrong to do others work for them and let them represent it as their own" which is what I do in my everyday job. And I am not shadow-writing, I am a consultant...Writing ideas that superiors represent as their own, or clients do. I guess this is capitalism, life or something. And someone not worth it has to be promoted before I do, as in the author's case someone has to be admitted for her to live.

> Writing ideas that superiors represent as their own, or clients do. If they actually do that, it'd be considered unethical. While specific credit isn't always given to the originator of an idea, superiors shouldn't pretend they actually had the idea. In many organizations, explicitly passing off an idea as your own would be a pretty serious offense.

>It'd be considered unethical

There's a big difference between passing someone's idea off as your own, and allowing someone to pass an idea off as their own.

I guess I'm considered "unethical" around these parts, but I stand firmly in the court that the buyer may have ethical issues, but certainly not the seller.

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