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How the Napa Earthquake Affected Bay Area Sleepers

jawbone.com

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Re: How the Napa Earthquake Affected Bay Area Sleepers

#81

Post by MadManE »

sumeno wrote: post #74
MadManE wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is saying that the technology is creepy. It's the fact that it's not at all private that's creepy. As Uncle Ben said, "With great power comes responsibility." It's an awesome thing to have the power of "big data" to analyze your life and make better decisions. But "big data" needs to be responsible in how they handle that data (and their users' trust).

Which individuals data was compromised in making this chart?

We don't know

That's the whole point. The fact that they have this data means that they could share it with whoever they want, whenever they want. And we would never know. So in this particular case, it's not a data issue - it's a trust issue.

Re: How the Napa Earthquake Affected Bay Area Sleepers

#82

Post by kevincrane »

antr wrote: post #18

The fact that Jawbone has this information on their users (yes, I know they say it's aggregated and "anonymised" data) is pretty scary to me. In my opinion, this data should only be visible to each user, and no one else. I really doubt Jawbone users are aware that their UP devices are sending data to third-parties... it feels like 21st century shackles.

First off, I have a Jawbone UP24 and love it. You know how they got that sleep data? I pushed the "start sleep" and "stop sleep" buttons, then they gave me an awesome visualization of how I slept last night. You know what you'd do if you didn't want them to have that data? Don't push those buttons.

Re: How the Napa Earthquake Affected Bay Area Sleepers

#83

Post by Retric »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #73
antr wrote: post #18

The fact that Jawbone has this information on their users (yes, I know they say it's aggregated and "anonymised" data) is pretty scary to me. In my opinion, this data should only be visible to each user, and no one else. I really doubt Jawbone users are aware that their UP devices are sending data to third-parties... it feels like 21st century shackles.

Comments like these make me think that the pro-privacy crowd is officially a cult. I just don't see the argument about anonymized data that you can opt-out of being such a threat to the end user. I love these types of analysis, especially the ones about dating from OK Cupid. Tivo used to reveal all sorts of interesting things about viewership that was very enlightening. I'd hate to lose this data just because a minor…

There is no such thing as completely anonymized data. And in this case there releasing information without the consent of their users. Sure, you might think that it's reasonable in this case but the important thing is users are not making that decision.

So, as long as companies feel they can do anything they feel like with the data your only option is to completely opt out. Which means companies have no reason not to release your data as everyone assumes they will anyway.

Re: How the Napa Earthquake Affected Bay Area Sleepers

#84

Post by amirmc »

jinushaun wrote: post #51
amirmc wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "... it is their own responsibility to read the T&Cs of those services." While some people may believe/feel this is reasonable, it has rapidly become impractical. Have you read the T&CS for all the services you use? Any idea how many pages of text that comes to? Did you also know that the reading level of most T&Cs requires college-level education (just to comprehend)? My point is that it is already impractical (&…

I still believe it's reasonable because once you've read one, you've read them all. They all pretty much say the same thing. Jawbone doing this or Facebook experimenting with the feed should not come as a surprise to anyone who has skimmed over a TOS.

> "They all pretty much say the same thing."

This is not a safe approach when you're dealing with legal contracts, which is what T&Cs purport to be. Minor difference in wording can have very different intents/outcomes.

Having said this, they pretty much give carte blanche to the service provider to do whatever they want -- so in that sense, they're all the same.. That doesn't make it right and it doesn't mean it can't/won't be contested at some point.

Re: How the Napa Earthquake Affected Bay Area Sleepers

#85

Post by praneshp »

acangiano wrote: post #71
reitanqild wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to read them, then sift through them. Then I gave up. My defence would go along the lines of: you don't seriously think that any end user would read that, would you? (Exceptions for APIs etc.) Same goes for legal disclaimers in email footers, cookie warnings, warning stickers etc. Why are we allowing this to happen? (My solution: "Yes, you can sue them because the coffee was hot (etc) and there was no sticker…

As an aside, the "coffee was hot" lawsuit wasn't as frivolous as people make it sound. See Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants for details.

Anytime someone says that lawsuit was frivolous, I lose a bit of respect for them.

Re: How the Napa Earthquake Affected Bay Area Sleepers

#86

Post by sumeno »

MadManE wrote: post #81
sumeno wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which individuals data was compromised in making this chart?

We don't know That's the whole point. The fact that they have this data means that they could share it with whoever they want, whenever they want. And we would never know. So in this particular case, it's not a data issue - it's a trust issue.

The Jawbone device is built upon the idea of the company storing the information. It is implicitly implied that if you use the device your data is being stored somewhere because that is what you are paying for them to do

Re: How the Napa Earthquake Affected Bay Area Sleepers

#87

Post by amirmc »

maxerickson wrote: post #75
amirmc wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "... it is their own responsibility to read the T&Cs of those services." While some people may believe/feel this is reasonable, it has rapidly become impractical. Have you read the T&CS for all the services you use? Any idea how many pages of text that comes to? Did you also know that the reading level of most T&Cs requires college-level education (just to comprehend)? My point is that it is already impractical (&…

Their privacy statement is short and clear: https://jawbone.com/legal/privacy ~1400 words. I liked this section: When you use the Jawbone Companion app we connect with and upload to our servers the address book and calendar on your device along with other data that we normally collect through our mobile apps described in the app usage data section below. I wonder how calendars are used.

I can't tell if you were being serious. Assuming you were, then 1400 words, presented as a wall of text, is an anathema to the short attention spans of many users. In addition, that 1400 words is a subset of around 5400 words for the Terms and use of software/services.

We can debate whether people should be educating themselves about such terms but my point is (still) that it's impractical in the long term as we want to use more services/devices. The only way out of this that makes sense to me is that people begin owning their data and (digital 'exhaust'). I'm working on FOSS tools to enable this (see my profile).

Re: How the Napa Earthquake Affected Bay Area Sleepers

#88

Post by maxerickson »

amirmc wrote: post #87
maxerickson wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their privacy statement is short and clear: https://jawbone.com/legal/privacy ~1400 words. I liked this section: When you use the Jawbone Companion app we connect with and upload to our servers the address book and calendar on your device along with other data that we normally collect through our mobile apps described in the app usage data section below. I wonder how calendars are used.

I can't tell if you were being serious. Assuming you were, then 1400 words, presented as a wall of text, is an anathema to the short attention spans of many users. In addition, that 1400 words is a subset of around 5400 words for the Terms and use of software/services. We can debate whether people should be educating themselves about such terms but my point is (still) that it's impractical in the long term as we want…

Yes, I was serious. It's a $80 dollar device that you wear a significant amount of time. In that context, 15 or 20 minutes spent understanding what it does is not onerous.

Note the comment I made earlier in another part of the thread where I said I pretty much refuse to use device+service combos like the one here.

Re: How the Napa Earthquake Affected Bay Area Sleepers

#89

Post by amirmc »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #73
antr wrote: post #18

The fact that Jawbone has this information on their users (yes, I know they say it's aggregated and "anonymised" data) is pretty scary to me. In my opinion, this data should only be visible to each user, and no one else. I really doubt Jawbone users are aware that their UP devices are sending data to third-parties... it feels like 21st century shackles.

Comments like these make me think that the pro-privacy crowd is officially a cult. I just don't see the argument about anonymized data that you can opt-out of being such a threat to the end user. I love these types of analysis, especially the ones about dating from OK Cupid. Tivo used to reveal all sorts of interesting things about viewership that was very enlightening. I'd hate to lose this data just because a minor…

You're extrapolating from one comment the viewpoints of everyone who cares about privacy? That's quite ridiculous. As another commenter has mentioned, de-anoymising data isn't that difficult [1].

Why should privacy advocates 'make reasonable concessions'? What are they holding us back from? What concessions is the other side making? Who exactly is on each of these sides anyway? Your comment isn't particularly clear on these points nor on why the opposite view is any better (other than we get nice graphs occasionally). There are cogent arguments to be made on either side here but you've made none.

> "I'd hate to lose this data just because a minority think its a threat to their civil rights."

Minorities matter and it's ironic that you bring up civil rights. There are plenty of example from history so please do look them up.

[1] I'm not saying it's possible for the graphs in the article, but if one had access to the (anonymised) data that produced them, it may be possible to combine with other data and ultimately identify individual users.

Re: How the Napa Earthquake Affected Bay Area Sleepers

#90

Post by unicornporn »

antr wrote: post #18

The fact that Jawbone has this information on their users (yes, I know they say it's aggregated and "anonymised" data) is pretty scary to me. In my opinion, this data should only be visible to each user, and no one else. I really doubt Jawbone users are aware that their UP devices are sending data to third-parties... it feels like 21st century shackles.

Does anyone know if there's a device like this that DOES NOT require uploading all collected data to "the cloud" in order to analyze what I've collected?

It's pretty obvious that this could be done on client side without needing an internet connection. Or do all of these companies sacrifice usability and privacy in order to make more money?

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