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Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

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Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#231

Post by kabdib »

peteretep wrote: post #43
jvagner wrote: post #30

I've been a CTO/CEO and have hired many people over time. Some of this has already been said, but: 1. Those jobs may still be open, reasonable people wouldn't hold taking another job against you. Work is work, and those who step back into discussion with you will show you a reasonableness that you will value more than before. 2. Situations like this is why sign-ing bonuses were invented. If you're COO of anything, yo…

> Those jobs may still be open, reasonable people wouldn't > hold taking another job against you Also a CTO who has hired many people. If I've made someone an offer, I want them. If they've had a better offer, that's ok. But if they've turned me down because it went nowhere, I still want them.

Agreed; a good company will stand behind a prior offer, within reason.

Twice I've gone back to someone who had given me an offer and said "I screwed up, would you still consider me?" a year later, and had an instant and very positive response. (I had to do a fake interview at one of those, but just to satisfy HR).

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#232

Post by swombat »

duck wrote: post #184
sheetjs wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please do us all a favor and let us know who they are beyond "a YC startup" so that none of us find ourselves in your shoes. Two other reasons for considering revealing the name: 1) a casual bystander might see this and conclude that all YC companies behave in this way, which hurts the other companies. 2) PG and other partners at YC read HN, and there's a good chance that action can be taken if they know who is inv…

It is pretty easy to find the YC company if you just look at his comment history and do a search or two. Which... is why you should aways use a throwaway account if you don't want people to figure this stuff out.

Actually he has no comments outside of this thread that is less than 91 days ago, so it's not so easy at all.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#233

Post by balls187 »

bjourne wrote: post #189
balls187 wrote: post #126

Hypothetical to the larger HN community: If you got accepted a job offer, and within 2 weeks got a job offer for more money, and at your dream company, would you feel obligated to stay with your initial decision? If you made the rational (but arguably unethical choice), do you think your reputation should be tarnished, and future employers think hard before extending an offer? I know it's not the exact situation as t…

No the situation isn't analogous at all because unexpectedly losing a job has a much higher impact on a person than for a company to unexpectedly lose an employer. A person is made of flesh and blood and can have his or her life shattered. A company is an abstract entity defined by laws.

> losing a job has a much higher impact on a person than for a company to unexpectedly lose an employer

This is true, but not without context.

In my scenario above, the circumstances were similar. 2-3 weeks into a new job.

Excluding someone who has been unemployed for an extended period of time, it seems odd that in 2-3 weeks, losing your job would shatter their life.

---

And I wouldn't exclude companies for being "shattered" either. It's very possible for companies to be formed around the reputation of a single individual, and if that individual left, would be shattering. Especially in early stages of a financing round.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#234

Post by rbobby »

Spoom wrote: post #142
yaur wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would talk to a lawyer before doing this... see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference

In what way would telling the truth in a private email constitute tortious interference?

The "truth" is only what can be proved in court. Lots of folks have been tripped up by that before... so be careful.

In this specific case the legal is likely very low. It's a startup and it's unlikely they have money to fund a lawsuit. Plus there's that whole "he's from another country" bit which would make collecting on a judgment pretty damn hard.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#235

Post by justguessingbut »

swombat wrote: post #232
duck wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is pretty easy to find the YC company if you just look at his comment history and do a search or two. Which... is why you should aways use a throwaway account if you don't want people to figure this stuff out.

Actually he has no comments outside of this thread that is less than 91 days ago, so it's not so easy at all.

Look at his startup idea that's hosted on appspot.com - the route to the YC company is found easily from there, with a couple of creative web searches.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#236

Post by jonnathanson »

poof131 wrote: post #182
jonnathanson wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not ordinarily, no. But I can't think of a circumstance under which it benefits you to disclose your grievances with a former employer to a new or potential employer. There is nothing but downside in doing that. Just as most companies are too incompetent or uninterested to search out your dirty laundry, most companies are too incompetent or uninterested to sort it. If they see it, they'll just acknowledge its existen…

But I can't think of a circumstance under which it benefits you to disclose your grievances with a former employer to a new or potential employer. I think the circumstance is like @jheriko said, as a filter. If an employer sees treating employees bad as dirty laundry, well maybe it isn't the place you want to work, and you're better off not getting an offer.

I understand that objective in theory, but it seems impractical in the wild. Most employers won't look beyond the surface level of "This person had issues with a previous employer and feels the need to discuss them here." They won't bother to ferret out who was right, who was wrong, and whether your grievances are legitimate -- even if they are. So you're basically raising a flag, and a lot of interviers or hiring managers will treat it as such.

Think about it from their perspective. They don't know you too well. All they know, at a quick glance, is that you have had problems with a previous employer. They get your side of the story, perhaps, but how are they to know if you're telling the full story, or if you're just the kind of person who complains about things and causes morale issues? They don't have the time or the process to sort that out, so they'll default to the conservative position of assuming you are more trouble than you're worth.

I've seen this torpedo people in job interviews. I've seen it sink the candidacies of people who were otherwise in very strong contention. Is that fair? Of course not. But it's something to keep in mind.

In a perfect world, sure, this would serve as a nice filter to determine if employers are worth working for. In the world we actually live in, this filter will, more often than not, filter you out of a lot of job opportunities. Meanwhile, there are more effective and less risky filters you can apply when vetting an employer.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#237

Post by rbobby »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #180
jvagner wrote: post #30

I've been a CTO/CEO and have hired many people over time. Some of this has already been said, but: 1. Those jobs may still be open, reasonable people wouldn't hold taking another job against you. Work is work, and those who step back into discussion with you will show you a reasonableness that you will value more than before. 2. Situations like this is why sign-ing bonuses were invented. If you're COO of anything, yo…

Can you give some advice on how other positions can argue such risk mitigation? 6 months severance would get every Software dev/eng laughed out to the street. as far as my experience goes, signing bonuses are out too. Usually the company is eating a massive training cost for the first 6 months, saying to them "In addition to training cost, I want X risk mitigation" seems unlikely to be met with agreement.

Here's a fun fact for you. Under Canadian employment law/case histories if you as a senior management employee with many years of service are "romanced" away to a new company which then fires you... your years of service at your original company should be used to calculate your severance.

For management positions this means 1 month severance for every year of service.

So if you romanced an executive into joining your startup you and then fire them you could be on the hook for a very large severance package.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#238

Post by rmc »

balls187 wrote: post #126

Hypothetical to the larger HN community: If you got accepted a job offer, and within 2 weeks got a job offer for more money, and at your dream company, would you feel obligated to stay with your initial decision? If you made the rational (but arguably unethical choice), do you think your reputation should be tarnished, and future employers think hard before extending an offer? I know it's not the exact situation as t…

I would say yes. Even in Europe, companies usually have a probationary period (of 3->6 months) when it's much easier to fire the new hire. If companies get that kind of flexibility to drop the employee, then the employee should have as much flexibility to drop the company.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#239

Post by reality_czech »

Well, I'll probably be hellbanned for this, but I don't blame the founders. it's a tiny company with probably a few thousand dollars between them. They made a bad decision, obviously. Does that mean they should go under with the weight of an employee they don't need?

You even said that you "found a job that you turned down" earlier. So it sounds like things worked out fine. Of course it was hard on you. But changing a job always is.

I don't know what your home country is, but I do know that there are millions of desperately poor unemployed people in India, 25% youth unemployment in Spain, and a pretty tough labor market here in the US for some low-skilled workers. We should be thankful for what we've got. And part of the reason we've got what we have in Sillicon Valley is a culture that allows experimentation. Quickly setting up a company is only possible if you can quickly tear it down or retarget it when things aren't working out.

You mentioned that you have a postgraduate degree in management. Well, you should know that what you're getting into when you join a startup is different than if you join a big, established company. Be a man (or woman) about this. Don't ask for special treatment.

And for the record, I had an employment offer yanked during the crash of 2001. Fun times.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#240

Post by Alupis »

poof131 wrote: post #230
Scuttles wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absurd guys. We have one guy's story, from his perspective. For all we know, the OP sat around and did nothing productive. The founders had a reason to terminate him - be it what others would call a "good reason" or otherwise. Perhaps there were issues the OP is completely unaware of? What will happen? Will YC yank funding over this? I hope not -- that would set a dangerous precedent and make me, for one, tha…

"For all we know, the OP sat around and did nothing productive." Working his network to help get a startup's first few customers at large, brand name companies? I'd hardly call that unproductive. In fact, if they iterate product dev on one of these customers, find that perfect product market fit, and scale; well, I'd say he played a roll in their success. "Perhaps there were issues the OP is completely unaware of?" T…

> The company could be totally justified letting him go, just not in the manner in which they did it.

How so? They decided he was not a good fit, by his own admission... so they cut him loose. Would you rather they hurt their business by keeping on employees who won't work out?

> One, you can't be terminated for any reason.

Yes you can. California has At-Will Employment. It means they can hire or fire for any reason, with or without notice, even if it's silly like they don't like where you eat lunch. On the same note, you can quit for any reason, without notice, even if it's silly like you don't like where the owners eat lunch.

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