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China Said to Exclude Apple From Procurement List

bloomberg.com

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Re: China Said to Exclude Apple From Procurement List

#31

Post by s_q_b »

electic wrote: post #28
s_q_b wrote: post #26

More protectionism is not the answer. Restraints on global trade are probably the most harmful thing we do to ourselves as a species. Now I understand that national defense is paramount. Some restrictions for national defense may be necessary (and neither China nor the US has helped promote trust in each other's products for defense uses lately), but trade restrictions should only be used as a last resort. We often f…

Honestly, I think their concerns are legitimate. They want to make sure the components and software they use won't spy on them. Welcome to 2014 and beyond.

Of course it is a legitimate concern, just as tainted food products from China are a legitimate concern, but they are not a big enough concern to warrant the absolutely massive economic risk the new Chinese leaders are taking.

Trade wars collapse nations, and this is how they begin. Tit-for-tat escalates quickly, and it is unfathomably reckless for a country that is dependent upon exports to ban products from the largest importer of its goods.

Re: China Said to Exclude Apple From Procurement List

#32

Post by s_q_b »

valas wrote: post #30
s_q_b wrote: post #26

More protectionism is not the answer. Restraints on global trade are probably the most harmful thing we do to ourselves as a species. Now I understand that national defense is paramount. Some restrictions for national defense may be necessary (and neither China nor the US has helped promote trust in each other's products for defense uses lately), but trade restrictions should only be used as a last resort. We often f…

Sounds like scaremongering to me. Chinese powers/oligarchs act here quire rationally. Protecting and promoting their own industries has paid them well so far (e.g. movies, car manufacturing, e-commerce/web). Will that hurt 'international trade'? Yes. Will this cause another Cold War? No.

Protectionism is rational in the same way robbery is rational: only if you can get away with it. And in both cases, the odds are low.

"Protecting and promoting their own industries has paid them well..."

Protectionism has paid certain members of China's elite very well at the extreme expense of the firms that could actually produce the goods most efficiently.

Many of those would-be producers are Americans, and if you think the automotive industry, Hollywood, and SV haven't been howling for retaliatory sanctions for years, you would be very wrong. See e.g. the blacklisting of Huawei gear from US government IT systems.

Further protectionism strengthens their hand, and if they get their way, we have open breakdown in trade. That isn't "scaremongering." It is simple fact, confirmed by countless historical examples.

The new Chinese leaders are like a man standing on the edge of a cliff saying "Well, every step I've taken thus far in this direction has moved me closer to my goal. Why shall the next be any different?"

Re: China Said to Exclude Apple From Procurement List

#33

Post by notasmartman »

s_q_b wrote: post #26

More protectionism is not the answer. Restraints on global trade are probably the most harmful thing we do to ourselves as a species. Now I understand that national defense is paramount. Some restrictions for national defense may be necessary (and neither China nor the US has helped promote trust in each other's products for defense uses lately), but trade restrictions should only be used as a last resort. We often f…

Lets not kid ourselves, security isn't the impetus behind this. It's politics. And politics is just grown men acting like children, while pretending that they're looking out for our best interest, all the while screwing us more than the people they are protecting us from.

Re: China Said to Exclude Apple From Procurement List

#34

Post by xkiwi »

#1>Obama bans wind-farm purchases by Chinese company http://money.cnn.com/2012/09/28/news/economy/obama-china-win...

#2>Huawei, ZTE Banned From Selling to U.S. Government http://techonomy.com/2013/04/huawei-zte-banned-from-selling-...

#3>Obama Imposes Tariffs On Chinese Tires http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/11/obama-imposes-tarif...

#4>Chinese exclusion policy of NASA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_exclusion_policy_of_NAS...

#5>Obama BANS U.S. government from buying Chinese-made computer technology over cyber-attack fears http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2300518/Obama-BANS-U...

What was the news again?

Re: China Said to Exclude Apple From Procurement List

#35

Post by s_q_b »

notasmartman wrote: post #33
s_q_b wrote: post #26

More protectionism is not the answer. Restraints on global trade are probably the most harmful thing we do to ourselves as a species. Now I understand that national defense is paramount. Some restrictions for national defense may be necessary (and neither China nor the US has helped promote trust in each other's products for defense uses lately), but trade restrictions should only be used as a last resort. We often f…

Lets not kid ourselves, security isn't the impetus behind this. It's politics. And politics is just grown men acting like children, while pretending that they're looking out for our best interest, all the while screwing us more than the people they are protecting us from.

The game in politics is to convince those who think like adults that your selfish idea is actually beneficial to the nation.

National security is something with which real adults concern themselves, so it makes a good excuse for local oligarchs to erect trade barriers to protect their interests.

By debunking the argument they make ("security"), often the true impetus becomes clear ("profit.")

Re: China Said to Exclude Apple From Procurement List

#36

Post by matthewmacleod »

xkiwi wrote: post #34

#1>Obama bans wind-farm purchases by Chinese company http://money.cnn.com/2012/09/28/news/economy/obama-china-win... #2>Huawei, ZTE Banned From Selling to U.S. Government http://techonomy.com/2013/04/huawei-zte-banned-from-selling-... #3>Obama Imposes Tariffs On Chinese Tires http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/11/obama-imposes-tarif... #4>Chinese exclusion policy of NASA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_exclus…

The news is that China is imposing additional import restrictions on US technology.

The fact that the US also does this – something we're all aware of – doesn't change the fact that this is interesting news!

Re: China Said to Exclude Apple From Procurement List

#37

Post by eliteraspberrie »

Glide wrote: post #7

Can anyone chime in and help the rest of us understand the relationship between business and government in China? I can't help but think this is more of a move to help China's internal industries, but it's hard to say without understanding the political climate.

In China, strategic industries like energy, steel, and telecommunications are state controlled. Huawei, for example, is a "national champion," which means it receives subsidies, foreign employees cannot own shares, the Party appoints an anonymous board to manage the company's management, and so on.

Re: China Said to Exclude Apple From Procurement List

#38

Post by RockyMcNuts »

threeseed wrote: post #16
Glide wrote: post #7

Can anyone chime in and help the rest of us understand the relationship between business and government in China? I can't help but think this is more of a move to help China's internal industries, but it's hard to say without understanding the political climate.

It's not dissimilar to every country really. Critical or large businesses e.g. energy, telecommunications always have an unusually close and unfettered relationship with government. In China it would likely be closer similar to say Russia. Australia recently banned the use of Chinese equipment from our national broadband rollout for national security reasons so this isn't an unprecedented move.

Well, top government officials have big ownership interests in national champions; companies have party secretaries on site who can pull rank on management; trying to compete against companies with ties to government is generally going to be quite difficult...not exactly like every country.

The iPhone is a luxury product in big demand, and being out of favor with the government will make it in even greater demand. The people targeted by Apple like their bling, people buy the foreign product because it's higher status and more trusted than the local product; in fact they'll go to Hong Kong to buy foreign products because they're afraid the one they buy locally will be counterfeit or crappy localized version. People trust Apple more than they trust the government or the Xiaomi knockoff.

Re: China Said to Exclude Apple From Procurement List

#39

Post by electic »

s_q_b wrote: post #31
electic wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I think their concerns are legitimate. They want to make sure the components and software they use won't spy on them. Welcome to 2014 and beyond.

Of course it is a legitimate concern, just as tainted food products from China are a legitimate concern, but they are not a big enough concern to warrant the absolutely massive economic risk the new Chinese leaders are taking. Trade wars collapse nations, and this is how they begin. Tit-for-tat escalates quickly, and it is unfathomably reckless for a country that is dependent upon exports to ban products from the lar…

This is a bit beyond food. You can analyze food and deem it safe or not safe. Simple. The FDA does a good job of this.

Tech. That is a different ball game. Any part of the device could be vulnerable. The components, the software, or the entire system. That being said, it is very difficult to analyze. When it is difficult to analyze you put your self at massive risk to lose diplomatic strategy, military secrets, financial secrets, and far beyond. Is it worth the risk? Nope.

Re: China Said to Exclude Apple From Procurement List

#40

Post by nwatson »

notasmartman wrote: post #33
s_q_b wrote: post #26

More protectionism is not the answer. Restraints on global trade are probably the most harmful thing we do to ourselves as a species. Now I understand that national defense is paramount. Some restrictions for national defense may be necessary (and neither China nor the US has helped promote trust in each other's products for defense uses lately), but trade restrictions should only be used as a last resort. We often f…

Lets not kid ourselves, security isn't the impetus behind this. It's politics. And politics is just grown men acting like children, while pretending that they're looking out for our best interest, all the while screwing us more than the people they are protecting us from.

This is won't stop corrupt Chinese officials with money to burn, and also will play out just like the BYOD scenario for mobile phones in corporations in the US:

BYOD phenomenon:

  * company issues BlackBerry or Windows 6.x phones
  * executive has money to burn, likes the iPhone/iPad
  * executive brings iPhone/iPad to work and tells I.T. guy "hook me up or you're fired"
  * I.T. makes an exception, deals with it
  * other people start bringing their iPhone/iPad to work
  * corporate policy adjusts and everybody can bring iOS/Android, corporate issues iOS/Android
  * players like Citrix, MobileIron, etc., have a market for Mobile Device Management
Chinese gov't evolution:

  * corrupt official has money to burn
  * corrupt official buys MacBook/iOS/iPad or Samsung, etc.
  * corrupt official uses his stuff at work despite policy
  * underlings want to show off too and bring their devices
  * Hmmm, except the US gov't still depends on BlackBerry, at least DHS
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