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China Said to Exclude Apple From Procurement List

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Re: China Said to Exclude Apple From Procurement List

#21
post #4

A country the size of China with the technical expertise available to them can create an open stack that they can manage and control. They already have several hardware manufacturers in their territory to make any hardware they may need. I honestly don't see why they would ever have been buying Apple and Microsoft products in the first place, and I'm an American.

Couple thoughts.... An open stack would be a nightmare for any bureaucratic government to design and control/manage. And essentially they'd be playing catch-up to Apple/Google/whatever designs in the first place. On top of that, at least in my experience, products made in China by Chinese companies are either knock-offs of western products, made cheaply, or they are just crappy products in general. Sure, the parts ca…

China can provide goods at many quality levels. But if Wallmart or other company purchases cheap crap, they get cheap crap, no wonders about it.

That does not mean that you cannot purchase quality Chinese goods.

It is in no way limited to China - entire Asia works like this.

Re: China Said to Exclude Apple From Procurement List

#22

I wonder what operating system they'll use on their mobile devices. Can't use Android--made in the USA.

They can use a fork of AOSP, with all Google code removed. Which is what several large Chinese hardware companies are already doing.

Re: China Said to Exclude Apple From Procurement List

#23
post #4

A country the size of China with the technical expertise available to them can create an open stack that they can manage and control. They already have several hardware manufacturers in their territory to make any hardware they may need. I honestly don't see why they would ever have been buying Apple and Microsoft products in the first place, and I'm an American.

Because not so long ago the Chinese hardware sucked big time. I'm talking about 5 years back or so.

They made huge improvements (Huawei, Meizu, Xiaomi, others) and are going to outsell brands like Apple and Samsung.

Re: China Said to Exclude Apple From Procurement List

#24
post #4

A country the size of China with the technical expertise available to them can create an open stack that they can manage and control. They already have several hardware manufacturers in their territory to make any hardware they may need. I honestly don't see why they would ever have been buying Apple and Microsoft products in the first place, and I'm an American.

So is Russia and probably India, Brasil and many other countries. I think we will soon se raise of ARM & Linux based desktop.

Re: China Said to Exclude Apple From Procurement List

#26
More protectionism is not the answer. Restraints on global trade are probably the most harmful thing we do to ourselves as a species.

Now I understand that national defense is paramount. Some restrictions for national defense may be necessary (and neither China nor the US has helped promote trust in each other's products for defense uses lately), but trade restrictions should only be used as a last resort.

We often forget that we have been down this road before. The world on the eve of World War I looked far more like the world of today than the world of our parents.

The entire globe was experiencing massively interconnected rapid economic growth, not just from industrialization, but from the speed and ease of global trade which the new technologies enabled. American ice was sold in India, India tea in Russia, German farm implements in Britain, and British everything everywhere.

Then came first the Great War, and then the Great Depression. And with the Depression came every politician's favorite way to fight economic woes: keep out the foreigners. One restraint led to immediate retaliation by other nations, creating a frenetic negative feedback loop, until finally the open system collapsed in its entirety.

And in its place we created a hidebound monstrosity, an incomprehensible series of trade regulations that were nearly impossible to navigate.

Of course this protectionism only drove us deeper into the Depression, caused global output to plummet to historic lows, made the global economic engine seize like an un-oiled V8, and threw lit thermite into the already smoldering tinderbox of militant nationalism.

It took two World Wars, a global standoff that threatened to consume all of civilization in nuclear holocaust, and most of a century to get back to where we started. Let's not throw away those hard-won gains over international intrigue. Trillions of dollars, and the lives they support, are at stake here.

Free trade is good. Full stop. It builds massive wealth through compounding growth. It pulls people out of dire poverty. And it stops wars.

To step away from it now, just as we enter a truly globalized world, would be the single largest self-inflicted wound to the global economy since the collapse of Rome.

Re: China Said to Exclude Apple From Procurement List

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couple thoughts.... An open stack would be a nightmare for any bureaucratic government to design and control/manage. And essentially they'd be playing catch-up to Apple/Google/whatever designs in the first place. On top of that, at least in my experience, products made in China by Chinese companies are either knock-offs of western products, made cheaply, or they are just crappy products in general. Sure, the parts ca…

China can provide goods at many quality levels. But if Wallmart or other company purchases cheap crap, they get cheap crap, no wonders about it. That does not mean that you cannot purchase quality Chinese goods. It is in no way limited to China - entire Asia works like this.

This is exactly right, and I don't think enough businesses appreciate it. The notion that you can 'save money by going to China' is somewhat of a misnomer, you can get a product built at a lower price but if that cost is lower than what it costs to build in the acceptable level of quality, you will get a low quality part.

What I found interesting in the one time I was part of a negotiation with a Chinese manufacturer (Quanta at the time) they really would build the gadget we needed for what ever price we asked for, except they knew that building it for less than $X would mean (probably unacceptable) corners would be cut. And perhaps more interestingly they knew many of the corners they would cut to get to the price, so when contract language was added/proposed that cut off that shortcut it forced a revisit to the price negotiations.

It really was you get exactly what you pay for, but more importantly if you didn't understand what you were paying for then you ran the risk of being surprised at what you got. One of those times where I saw how little I would be able to really know about the ins and outs of that process without dedicating a lot of time and running a lot of projects through that channel.

Re: China Said to Exclude Apple From Procurement List

#28
post #26

More protectionism is not the answer. Restraints on global trade are probably the most harmful thing we do to ourselves as a species. Now I understand that national defense is paramount. Some restrictions for national defense may be necessary (and neither China nor the US has helped promote trust in each other's products for defense uses lately), but trade restrictions should only be used as a last resort. We often f…

Honestly, I think their concerns are legitimate. They want to make sure the components and software they use won't spy on them. Welcome to 2014 and beyond.

Re: China Said to Exclude Apple From Procurement List

#29
post #23
post #4

A country the size of China with the technical expertise available to them can create an open stack that they can manage and control. They already have several hardware manufacturers in their territory to make any hardware they may need. I honestly don't see why they would ever have been buying Apple and Microsoft products in the first place, and I'm an American.

Because not so long ago the Chinese hardware sucked big time. I'm talking about 5 years back or so. They made huge improvements (Huawei, Meizu, Xiaomi, others) and are going to outsell brands like Apple and Samsung.

>They made huge improvements (Huawei, Meizu, Xiaomi, others)...

Agreed, and we can only expect more improvement as China moves up the value chain.

>and are going to outsell brands like Apple and Samsung

In China, sure. I think Xiaomi is neck-and-neck with Samsung right now. But it will take a bit longer in the rest of the world for those firms to compete elsewhere. I expect an integration of product mix, with China joining the club of developed nations, rather than a takeover of manufacturing by Chinese producers.

Chinese brands are in the position of Japanese brands in the late 70s, trying to shed a reputation for making "cheap knock-offs," even when those knock-offs were better than the originals.

The path to fast growth in Asia seems to be: industrialize, specialize in cheap products, move into massed-produced consumer goods, improve quality by copying foreign competitors, then use your new engineering knowledge earned by cloning competitors' products to leapfrog the competition.

Japan did it to us, Korea did it to Japan, and now China will most likely be next.

And don't think the United States didn't do it ourselves. Heck, we invented the model during the industrial revolution when we leapfrogged Europe using plenty of "borrowed" ideas.

The upshot though is that economic growth is mostly a universal good these days. Certainly both the United States and Japan are better off than they would have been if Japan never caught up with us. We should be celebrating the rise of China's people, not fearing it.

And while their government may be antagonistic and repressive, it is leaps and bounds better than it was a few decades ago. If one were to construct a Maslow's hierarchy of needs for the Four Freedoms, Freedom from Want would be at its base. Further progress seems likely.

The vector is pointed in the right direction for everyone involved. All we have to do is not screw up the course.

Re: China Said to Exclude Apple From Procurement List

#30
post #26

More protectionism is not the answer. Restraints on global trade are probably the most harmful thing we do to ourselves as a species. Now I understand that national defense is paramount. Some restrictions for national defense may be necessary (and neither China nor the US has helped promote trust in each other's products for defense uses lately), but trade restrictions should only be used as a last resort. We often f…

Sounds like scaremongering to me. Chinese powers/oligarchs act here quire rationally. Protecting and promoting their own industries has paid them well so far (e.g. movies, car manufacturing, e-commerce/web).

Will that hurt 'international trade'? Yes. Will this cause another Cold War? No.

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