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No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

polygon.com

131–140 of 375 posts

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#131
I was disappointed by the "Letters to Women" video because I kept waiting for a gender-specific slur, and there weren't any! A different "letter" might have been chosen to make the point better.

If you put your anthropologist hat on, being called a "tasteless, stupid-ass, bitch-ass f--ktard" who should "go f--k your slutty-ass bitch mother" is a kind of acceptance. You're on the receiving end of all the same deeply offensive, vaguely emasculating language you'd get if you were "one of the guys" who happens to be a stupid noob, being criticized for your taste in games(!) along with your general cluelessness and total impotence and inadequacy. It's the kind of acknowledgment you get when a fellow rapper pours his heart into explaining that you suck and he rules.

I guess what I'm saying is, this letter is an example of "you-are-a-low-status-male" invective, and it's pretty easy to walk into a stream of it in certain communities. The fact that it was knowingly directed at a woman is what strikes me first, and in that sense it seems less like sexism than some sort of f--ed up equality.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#132

What should a game studio to do counter this and make its employees safe from it?

I think the best thing to do as far as internal harassment goes is to basically have a no tolerance policy from the higher-ups. Not so much a "you'll get fired" thing but having everyone step up and say "Hey, that's not cool" when someone makes a sexist joke. At my job, we had a guy for awhile who would post funny pictures in chat. Every once in awhile, he'd post something NSFW (not necessarily nudity) and all the gu…

In every other situation this place bemoans the cruelty and stupidity of "zero tolerance," which I think is the correct reaction. Other than that I agree with everything you're saying.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#133
post #106
post #26

This is the sort of journalism I would expect to find on Jezebel, rather than Polygon. Filled with us vs. them mentality: no man can understand, men all think this, men always tell us that. Men never deal with harassment, death threats, or rape threats. Well, here's a little variation on Hitchens' Razor: what can be proven with anecdotal evidence can be dismissed with anecdotal evidence. http://www.edge-online.com/fe…

Am I wrong that this would have been the top upvoted comment on HN 5 years ago? If so maybe that counts as a tiny bit of progress/small strides. Or maybe this will be the top voted when I come back later, /sigh...

If you disagree with any of the points I've made, I'm all ears.

I did not make that comment in some lame attempt to troll or stir up controversy. I have presented my case against using the harassment of women in gaming as an excuse to target and harass the male demographic, and I'm willing to discuss it further with anyone that's interested.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#134

We need to fix this. Whenever someone feels like they are in a position of power, things like this happen. This power can come from anonymity (eg: the internet), it can come from a position of authority (boss), or sometimes it can come from just being dominated by an in-group with a much smaller out-group. What's happening here seems like a mix of the power of anonymity on the internet mixed with the fact that women…

what if those filters also watched for hate words?

I'd love to know what a "hate word" entails. Sounds like it would gratuitously bring down all negative opinions, including ones that aren't hurtful. Especially since you give the word "hate" itself as an example, which is ludicrous.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#135
I'm going to leave this here, don't accept the form of argument from the article quite yet:

>Keeping in mind that actual stalking has never been dealt with in any significant way ever, the desire of a few female writers to curb online anonymity wouldn't be enough to get an @ mention, except that this happens to coincide with what the media wants, and now we have the two vectors summing to form a public health crisis. "Cyberbullying is a huge problem!" Yes, but not because it is hurtful, HA! no one cares about your feelings-- but because criticism makes women want to be more private-- and the privacy of the women is bad. The women have to be online, they do most of the clicking and receive most of the clicks. Anonymous cyberbullying is a barrier to increasing consumption, it's gotta go.

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2014/05/cyberbll.html

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#136
Can someone explain to me if this is just the online gaming culture intruding on the professional game dev industry or actual industry professionals making comments like this? I have been heavy into CSGO this year and rarely does a match go by without very offensive comments from someone. I have grown a thick skin to this sort of thing online but could not imagine it intruding into real life.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#137
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the best thing to do as far as internal harassment goes is to basically have a no tolerance policy from the higher-ups. Not so much a "you'll get fired" thing but having everyone step up and say "Hey, that's not cool" when someone makes a sexist joke. At my job, we had a guy for awhile who would post funny pictures in chat. Every once in awhile, he'd post something NSFW (not necessarily nudity) and all the gu…

Personally, I disagree. I have no problem my coworkers saying dick/sex/insulting/racist/etc jokes, whether they are male or female. If I worked at a company that claimed to have a "relaxed" office culture (i.e. most startups, not corporations), I would strongly voice my opinion that such censorship is inappropriate. The recent case of an Attlasian developer making a joke about his girlfriend at a conference comes to…

I think that in a lot of companies, this would be a terrible approach to take. By not standing up against such things, you could easily destroy the cohesion in a company.

Maybe if you have a very homogenous company then noone will be there to take offence (that doesn't make it right), but the fact is that most companies are becoming more diverse and it is in their interests to support all members of the company to retain cohesion and efficiency - that means protecting them against their own coworkers, who may be racist, sexist, etc.

In addition, a company doesn't want it to get out that it has a very toxic work environment, as that could harm relations with consumers and partners.

You might call it censorship, but the fact is that companies must do what they need to to protect individual employees against a toxic culture.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#138
post #105

> "When a woman criticizes me, it goes to a different part of my brain than when a man on my team does. I get defensive really quickly." This point isn't stressed enough. Majority of people treat criticism differently depending on the gender of the source. Other types of interaction are also hugely dependent on gender. We even refer to each other with different pronouns depending on the type of sexual organs our bodi…

Anecdata: I'm a man and I get more defensive when men criticize me than when women do.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#139

These are the sorts of issues that make one wish anonymity online was impossible or always traceable. The cowardice that lives in people is astounding. For those muttering the free speech line: freedom of speech ≠ freedom of consequences.

I haven't downvoted you and don't really understand why anyone would, but I do disagree with you strongly. I think you've failed to account for many vulnerable groups who could (and in fact have in the past) suffer as a result of disclosure. Some examples: minorities prosecuted for their religion, ethnicity, political views or sexual orientation, political activists, journalists, apostates or other people who expressed criticism of established religion or state ideology.

Re: No skin thick enough: The daily harassment of women in the game industry

#140
post #128

I always find it very strange that we don't apply spam filters and recent machine learning techniques to the problem of filtering comments. If I looked at my email unfiltered, I'd think one in three of the people sending me messages in the past day were unusually concerned about the state of my penis. From a not-adding-anything-to-the-discussion perspective, dead baby pictures and random threats of rape or acts of vi…

Maybe there's some value there, but my experience is that you can rarely solve a "people" problem with a purely technical solution. Also, as a society, I'd like to think we can do better than "sorry about the rape/murder threats, we'll try to hide most of them from you"

Agreed. Applying filters hides the symptoms without treating the underlying illness, which is a society that is infested with sexism. We can treat the symptoms by filtering but at the end of the day we need strategies for making society less sexist.
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