Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ?

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#61

Post by dbul » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 4:11 PM UTC

psranga wrote: post #11

yummyfajitas wrote: post #2

A strange fact popped into my mind, after reading this story and remembering some comments on the "Turing deserves an apology" story. Many people will say that two consenting adults have the right to do whatever they want in the privacy of their own bedroom. As soon as the act those adults want to do becomes nonsexual (e.g. an unpaid internship, unlicensed medicine), that principle goes out the window. Very confusing…

Hmm, one is an equal partnership, the other isn't. The unpaid internship law serves to give some protections to the little guy. Btw, I really don't understand why a billionaire (?) can't afford to pay hourly minimum wages to a bunch of kids.

I think it really depends on the industry. If someone had offered me an unpaid internship for coding at any point in my life I would have told them no because I am aware that I could easily earn money or I'd probably be better off contributing to an open source project.

But consider the hypothetical in another industry. Someone gets a shot at an unpaid internship, they do really well, the company they are associated with gives them a recommendation, and immediately after the internship they get an offer for a position in that industry. Or: Someone does not get an internship, it is a competitive industry, the person ends up working an $8 / hr job for the next some odd years until they get an opening in the industry. It would seem the benefit to the unpaid intern could be greater than the benefit to the company.

Of course, there is the scenario where the person becomes an entrepreneur.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#62

Post by byrneseyeview » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 4:13 PM UTC

rapind wrote: post #7

It may not be a popular opinion but I agree with the US gov on this one. Everyone wants something for free. However, I think the big problem is how the compensation is valued. If the experience gained by the intern is more valuable than minimum wage, then yes, the law seems broken. However for every job that would actually provide meaningful experience and benefit the intern there are probably many other internships…

Since the gov really has no easy way of measuring the experience / networking compensation, if they attempted to, it would be to the detriment of the mojority of iterns, who would end up working for free for very little if any benefit.

The government can't figure it out. Can the interns? If there's a huge population that's willing to work for free, and they're all undervalued, then a company that hires interns for minimum wage will be able to get all the good ones.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#63

Post by apotheon » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 4:13 PM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #16

pjvandehaar wrote: post #8

He'd lose a little money, but couldn't he pay them minimum wage and then charge them $7/hour for the training he's giving them(just like the martial arts schools)? Also, if his company is him and a bunch of interns, who's going to sue him?

His company is very large. He owns the Dallas Mavericks basketball team and HDnet, along with a bunch of other smaller things. Plenty of money for lawyers to go after.

. . . and, as he pointed out, in some jurisdictions at least it doesn't have to be someone within the company suing. A competitor could sue, or some ridiculous do-gooder who can't stand to see people "exploited" (like some of the people in this discussion, evidently).

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#64

Post by cwan » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 4:16 PM UTC

gabrielroth wrote: post #36

yummyfajitas wrote: post #2

A strange fact popped into my mind, after reading this story and remembering some comments on the "Turing deserves an apology" story. Many people will say that two consenting adults have the right to do whatever they want in the privacy of their own bedroom. As soon as the act those adults want to do becomes nonsexual (e.g. an unpaid internship, unlicensed medicine), that principle goes out the window. Very confusing…

Under the 13th Amendment, you don't have the right to sell yourself into slavery in the United States. That is, you can't sign a contract under which I pay your family $n and in return you work for me under conditions of slavery. Prohibitions on unpaid labor are an extension of this restriction on your freedom to enter into contract of your own free will.

How is an unpaid internship anywhere close to being slavery? The unpaid intern can walk away at any time. Further, it's the choice of the unpaid intern - not their family as to whether or not to accept the choice.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#65

Post by akeefer » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 4:16 PM UTC

cwan wrote: post #9

rapind wrote: post #7

It may not be a popular opinion but I agree with the US gov on this one. Everyone wants something for free. However, I think the big problem is how the compensation is valued. If the experience gained by the intern is more valuable than minimum wage, then yes, the law seems broken. However for every job that would actually provide meaningful experience and benefit the intern there are probably many other internships…

You haven't explained why you agree with the US government on this one (though it's not just the US government). Value is subjective - so in the end, why would we rely on the government to establish value in the first place? Are you saying that instead of letting people make their own choices at an individual level as to whether or not the experience is of value, it's better for government to just ban the choice alto…

I'll take a crack at justifying it.

First of all, if you have a minimum wage law (which we do), it has to be enforced. Allowing people to work as "unpaid interns" is a half-assed way that corporations take to work around that law. You can argue about the efficacy of minimum wage laws, but it seems like real empirical studies (instead of just theoretical arguments) have been pretty inconclusive. And overall, the point is that you can't just let people create a massive loophole in that law by just deciding not to pay people at all.

Secondly, from a simple ethical standpoint, unpaid internships privilege people who are already well enough off to be able to give their labor away for free (i.e. generally middle-class or wealthier kids whose parents can support them). You don't get a lot of poor kids applying for unpaid internships at age 20 or 22 because, guess what, they need those 40+ hours a week to actually earn an income. So the tradition of unpaid internships in certain traditionally white-collar industries tends to be a subtle form of class discrimination.

And recasting it as a "volunteer" thing is also a total cop-out: you volunteer for a non-profit charity, not a for-profit corporation.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#66

Post by timr » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 4:18 PM UTC

cwan wrote: post #9

rapind wrote: post #7

It may not be a popular opinion but I agree with the US gov on this one. Everyone wants something for free. However, I think the big problem is how the compensation is valued. If the experience gained by the intern is more valuable than minimum wage, then yes, the law seems broken. However for every job that would actually provide meaningful experience and benefit the intern there are probably many other internships…

You haven't explained why you agree with the US government on this one (though it's not just the US government). Value is subjective - so in the end, why would we rely on the government to establish value in the first place? Are you saying that instead of letting people make their own choices at an individual level as to whether or not the experience is of value, it's better for government to just ban the choice alto…

"Value is subjective - so in the end, why would we rely on the government to establish value in the first place?"

We don't. The government takes the logical position that all such internships are illegal, so regulators don't need to make that subjective judgment.

In this light, the answer to your second question is "yes" -- the government is erring on the side of worker safety. It's a judgment call, and you can disagree with it, but both sides of the debate have perfectly reasonable arguments.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#67

Post by apotheon » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 4:18 PM UTC

ahoyhere wrote: post #60

apotheon wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Working for no pay on your own company is still totally legal and, whaddaya know, also known for giving a person experience. . . . but useless for getting your foot in the job field's door, because you have to already be there to "take advantage" of that "opportunity". Your "solution" completely ignores the catch 22 of needing a job to get experience and needing experience to get a job.

After years of freelancing, without prior "work experience" and without even a high school diploma, my first job paid me $64,000. Think about it - I ran my own business, I was responsible for everything from client acquisition, billing, account management, not to mention actual production and marketing. And I didn't starve or get evicted, so it clearly worked. That's great experience. An unpaid internship doesn't giv…

> People frame these unpaid internships as some great act of heroic entrepreneurial spirit, and they're not.

I'm not calling them "heroic". I'm just annoyed that other people are casting them as "evil". They can be mutually beneficial, and I don't see a problem with that. The "evil" is people trying to prohibit mutually beneficial transactions.

By the way, I love the entrepreneurial spirit. I just don't love the "you must be an entrepreneur, one of the lucky people who sneak past the catch 22, or 'paid' by way of taxes" plan. I prefer maximizing opportunity, rather than limiting it, even for people who don't have that entrepreneurial spirit.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#68

Post by apotheon » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 4:20 PM UTC

ahoyhere wrote: post #52

apotheon wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you've noticed, but sex creates people .

The sex acts that are considered illegal do not create people. Thus they have no greater impact than childless heterosexual couples who only have sex in the missionary position. Whether that childlessness is intentional or accidental is even more irrelevent. Moreover, spouses/sex partners and offspring are not half as fungible as employees. If Joe and Sue (or Bob and Brad) have a child, don't have a child, or adopt a…

If it were possible to ban all non-procreative sex acts and all forms of contraception, it definitely would affect how many children are born.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#69

Post by onlyafly » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 4:21 PM UTC

I can't think of an article I've read recently that I disagree with more. This is a good law that protects potential employees from being used by cheapskates like the author of this article who want to get slave labor from their employees. Free internships hurt those looking for jobs because they have to compete with free when they need money to pay the bills.

Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You

#70

Post by kingkongrevenge » Sat, Sep 05, 2009, 4:23 PM UTC

ahoyhere wrote: post #34

kingkongrevenge wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Procreation and norms of marriage and family have enormous social ramifications. There is no distinction.

I'm sorry, but the two have nothing to do with each other. And, honestly, I'm aghast to find such poor reasoning on HN. Employment shapes society. Employment pays taxes, puts rooves over people's heads, causes stress and worry (what if I lose my job!?), informs societal choices regarding basic social services (tied to company healthcare). Finally, employment is a public act because it is a market -- if Joe works for…

Joe doing it up the butt created the AIDS epidemic. Seems publicly relevant to me. Not that I personally care much about Joe doing it up the butt, but once you think government has a role in sculpting society there is no distinction between personal social issues and personal business issues.

Women choosing to have children out of wedlock has a huge effect on everyone. Much more than some guy offering unpaid internships.