I think the argument that interns are somehow compensated by "gaining invaluable experience" is somewhat of a strawman. Experience doesn't go away if an intern gets it. Money does and work gets done. I have seen too many people being lured into one "valuable" internship after the other. SOmeone wanted to get some work done and offered "valuable industry insights" as compensation. That is just laughable. If you need someone to do work, pay for it. Simple as that.
Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You
51–60 of 191 posts
Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm sorry, but the two have nothing to do with each other. And, honestly, I'm aghast to find such poor reasoning on HN. Employment shapes society. Employment pays taxes, puts rooves over people's heads, causes stress and worry (what if I lose my job!?), informs societal choices regarding basic social services (tied to company healthcare). Finally, employment is a public act because it is a market -- if Joe works for…
I don't know if you've noticed, but sex creates people .
The sex acts that are considered illegal do not create people. Thus they have no greater impact than childless heterosexual couples who only have sex in the missionary position. Whether that childlessness is intentional or accidental is even more irrelevent.
Moreover, spouses/sex partners and offspring are not half as fungible as employees. If Joe and Sue (or Bob and Brad) have a child, don't have a child, or adopt a child, that doesn't affect your ability to have a child or not, as you wish.
Meanwhile, employing people for nothing does have an affect on the job market.
Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
I understand that.. but the fact that the white house and politicians he rails against have interns show that they think it is a positive experience. They also know a for-profit business should be paying their workers. (Not to say I agree one way or the other. It is a fine line between experience and exploitation)
re: "It is a fine line between experience and exploitation" - shouldn't the person getting the experience/being exploited be the arbiter of that rather than some random bureaucrat?
In a perfect world yes.. but in the real world that is the reason there are labor unions.
If you complete a 6 month internship we will give you a job. And keep stringing the person along.. etc..
I think a good compromise would limit an internship to 3 months, afterwards you have to pay. And the employee has to be in a college or degree program or 2 years out of one. And somehow limit it so Burger King can't make you work 3 months for free.
Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You
#54I think the argument that interns are somehow compensated by "gaining invaluable experience" is somewhat of a strawman. Experience doesn't go away if an intern gets it. Money does and work gets done. I have seen too many people being lured into one "valuable" internship after the other. SOmeone wanted to get some work done and offered "valuable industry insights" as compensation. That is just laughable. If you need s…
1. I'm not sure you're clear on the meaning of the term "strawman".
2. An internship actually can be valuable work experience, and that job may not exist at all if it can't be unpaid.
Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You
#55Everyone deserves fair compensation for their work. I've never understood how anyone could work for a profitable business for free. An intern, especially in the technical field, is probably more up to date than a salaried employee.
> An intern, especially in the technical field, is probably more up to date than a salaried employee.
That's a dubious claim, but let's roll with it, just for argument's sake. If it's true, that doesn't change the fact that someone likely to get an internship doesn't have any job experience, and may thus have a very, very difficult time getting hired. This is why people accept internships; so they can get experience that allows them to get a job.
Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Hmm, one is an equal partnership, the other isn't. Is it really? Is SM play "an equal partnership" between master and slave?
Uh, it's not like the "slave" is someone the "master" just kidnapped. It's an agreed upon situation with an established "safe word" the "slave" can utter at any time to stop whatever is happening.
An internship is just like that. The safe word is "I quit."
Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You
#57A strange fact popped into my mind, after reading this story and remembering some comments on the "Turing deserves an apology" story. Many people will say that two consenting adults have the right to do whatever they want in the privacy of their own bedroom. As soon as the act those adults want to do becomes nonsexual (e.g. an unpaid internship, unlicensed medicine), that principle goes out the window. Very confusing…
Many people will say that two consenting adults have the right to do whatever they want in the privacy of their own bedroom
In that case, both parties are natural persons, in complete freedom, entering into an agreement with each-other that is unlikely to have bad consequences for society. There is not need for government regulation.
As soon as the act those adults want to do becomes nonsexual (e.g. an unpaid internship, unlicensed medicine), that principle goes out the window.
Because in those cases, one of the parties is either not a natural person (but a company) or it's a natural person that performs specific actions that have a much larger chance of having bad consequences.
Companies can only exist by the grace of government regulation. They can be extremely powerful and hence the government must protect its citizens against it's own creations. Government regulation is already the case.
The first purpose of the government is to take care of issues we cannot individually handle. Judging who is fit to be a doctor and who isn't is one of them, as much as maintaining a police force is. Government regulation of this is part of its 'reason for being'.
Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
So . . . the fact you don't want him to be able to benefit from an internship is good enough reason to make sure the would-be interns don't get to benefit from it either. Is that it?
Not at all, it could be very beneficial to all parties. More power to him and the free market system. But his concern for the betterment of the interns is just sanctimonious prattle. He doesn't like to leave money on the table, and he's peeved that the government will prevent him from getting the best price possible.
> He doesn't like to leave money on the table, and he's peeved that the government will prevent him from getting the best price possible.
Actually, from what I read, it seems like he's peeved that the government will prevent him from creating those jobs in the first place -- because without unpaid interns, the whole project will become nothing but a gigantic money pit.
Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You
#59They're the same issues with minimum wage. The "minimum wage brings minimum jobs" because it hurts those with the least experience the most ( http://blogs.abcnews.com/johnstossel/2009/08/new-video-minim... ). The irony is that people who call themselves advocates for the poor pushing for increasingly higher minimum wages actually hurt the poor with these policies.
The issue of min wage came up here before - the studies I found were mainly inconclusive, it's a hard one to test. One that came up, was a test in the food service industry (low waged) either side of a state border, one side with min wage the other without. It showed that the min wage tended to increased employment and improve the financial position for those employed with minimum wage vs. those in a non-min wage pos…
I can respect that it's difficult to isolate for the variables and testing the effects of minimum wage (ie you would have to isolate the "value" created from the various businesses like the food service companies), but the laws of supply and demand are pretty straightforward. Price floors (e.g. minimum wage) result in surpluses, price ceilings (e.g. rent control) result in shortages.
From an employer's perspective it's easy to see that the more you pay the more interest you'll get from those who can perform work better. The idea that employers would naturally exploit their workers is a bit silly given the ability for those workers to look elsewhere. And they do - which is why real wages have risen substantially over time (capturing some of the value in productivity improvements) to the point that in many cases entry level/effective minimum wages greatly exceed legislated minimum wage. The idea however that government should impose a choice means higher costs on society - in this case borne by the lowest wage earners as they are the ones who are least employable for whatever reason (by definition), means that fewer get hired.
And thus you get examples like this: http://www.seattlepi.com/opinion/153901_unemploy26.html
Re: Want an Unpaid Internship So You Can Get Valuable Experience ? – Screw You
#60As if the job market weren't already too much of a "buyer's market." So many Americans are held hostage by their jobs because of the lack of good unemployment/severance and the deathgrip of health insurance. I don't see any reason to encourage the situation even more by having some jobs - that are actually jobs - be for no pay. Working for no pay on your own company is still totally legal and, whaddaya know, also kno…
> Working for no pay on your own company is still totally legal and, whaddaya know, also known for giving a person experience. . . . but useless for getting your foot in the job field's door, because you have to already be there to "take advantage" of that "opportunity". Your "solution" completely ignores the catch 22 of needing a job to get experience and needing experience to get a job.
After years of freelancing, without prior "work experience" and without even a high school diploma, my first job paid me $64,000.
Think about it - I ran my own business, I was responsible for everything from client acquisition, billing, account management, not to mention actual production and marketing.
And I didn't starve or get evicted, so it clearly worked. That's great experience.
An unpaid internship doesn't give you any more experience than running your own business. And honestly, it can reflect poorly on your business acumen and/or drive.
If you are relying on the names on your resume, not what you actually did, it's not going to do you much good.
It's fine to not have enough drive to do things on your own, to want to take the "default route" to "default success." There's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. I applaud anyone who finds their path to happiness.
But. People frame these unpaid internships as some great act of heroic entrepreneurial spirit, and they're not. If you want to be rewarded down the road for great acts of heroic entrepreneurial spirit, be an entrepreneur.
Bonus: that creates jobs, and builds everyone up, instead of creating competition for 'free' jobs that pay nothing but 'experience.'