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The Benefits of Failing at French

nytimes.com

141–150 of 158 posts

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That figure includes partial speakers , so people who learned a little French in school but probably have a much better knowledge of say English. With the exception of France most countries that legitimately speak French as the main language are either tiny or third world.

Don't forget Montreal. It's the 8th largest city in North America. It has a rich history of bilingualism, but it's essentially French speaking.

I am french and lived in Quebec for a few years. Be aware that the french spoken in Québec is somewhat different in every way (vocabulary, expressions and pronunciation) than the one spoken in France. For instance, up in the thread frandroid wrote "Je vais aller au dépanneur" and translated it to "I will go to the convenience store". For a French the translation would be "I am going to the auto repair shop" ;-) As a French I have hard time understanding french Québec people even after a few years spent there, mostly due to pronunciation (now I know the most common expressions and vocabulary).

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#142
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe that was true in 1965, but it's nowhere near the case today. Historically the downtown business core of Montréal was Anglophone while the poorer, rural areas were completely Francophone. However, rural people could still vote: the result was the 1976 provincial victory for the Parti Québécois who immediately introduced far-reaching legislation requiring the use of French in public places, in the workplace, etc.…

Thanks for the correction! I wasn't aware it had changed that much. I am well aware of the treatment you get as an English speaker in Quebec. If they think you're non-Canadian, they are super friendly. If they think you're Anglophone Canadian, watch out!

It is the same for French (from France). As soon as they spot your french (from France) accent, and it just starts by saying "Bonjour" , they become less friendly. Exaggerating a little bit French are seen as pedantic, think he knows better than everyone else, and not trustworthy (but it is not exclusive to Québec ;-))

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#143

A couple of points: 1) The guy lists his activities with heavy focus on Rosetta Stone. To me that pretty much invalidates his claims on the spot. RS is not really well respected in language learning circles (at least a couple of years ago, it was not). Pimsleur is better due to its exponential backoff repetition model and it's "how do you say" prompts. 2) I did not see any mention of activities that actually built vo…

Great (and true) points. I like to think of the process as one might think of exercising a part of the body, in that one shouldn't let the muscles get used to just one method. When people ask me what's the best method to learning a foreign language, I say 'do them all'. I also advocate for the 'translate word by word' technique and to realize what you can do alone (reading, writing, listening) should be better than what you can do with someone else present (speaking). In other words, work on what you can, when you can. Small steps, consistency and not giving up are also key factors.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#144
post #63

The author hits an important point. I'm a native French speaker and speak to anglophones trying to improve their french everyday and the overwhelming majority gets distracted if they don't get the noun genders right, pick the right verb tenses and all sorts of things like that. They hesitate mid-sentence trying to remember the rules and get it perfectly instead of just saying "Tommy hitted me" like in the article. As…

There's another advantage the toddler has, not mentioned in the article. People expect the toddler to speak poorly, and don't make fun of him or treat him badly for doing so. I found being laughed at was a huge barrier to learning French when I lived in Montreal. For example, many English speakers (and Quebecers!) I know have stories like this to tell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaFf2kWL45U (45s clip from The Mo…

> I found being laughed at was a huge barrier to learning French when I lived in Montreal

Wow, can anyone explain the reasoning behind making fun of a language learner? I'm in Japan right now, and the reaction to me speaking my feeble attempt at Japanese here is more "OMG you can speak Japanese? That's amazing!"

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#145
post #43
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>if you ever want to work in Canada knowing French would help you a lot more than knowing Spanish. Only if you want to work for the federal government or in the decidedly non dynamic province of Quebec.

Non dynamic?

Non dynamic:

>From 2000 to 2009, no province had lower so-called “firm entry” than Quebec. In fact, in the manufacturing, retail, transportation and finance sectors, more companies went away than were created. No other province had that level of “destruction” without the customarily accompanying “creative.”

http://www.macleans.ca/economy/business/why-quebec-business-...

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#146

one problem i have with foreign languages is how its taught. a child spends years to just get to 'i hitted the dog' and still mispronounces most of the words and its like 'yay great job. despite the kid having the synapse advantages over an adult. an adult spends a few months learning an entire language and its like 'what? you have to learn how to spell it correctly, say all the right tenses, pronounce it correctly,…

Children seem to always figure out the details eventually, whereas many second language learners seem to miss out on some details unless explicitly corrected, and even then find it hard to change established speaking habits. I’m not sure anyone really knows why this is, but it’s one reason why some people recommend trying very hard to avoid speaking (and listening to others speak) incorrect sentences when learning a language.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#147
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is perhaps one of the more insightful comments on learning a foreign language I've ever read. It really crystallizes the tolerance of the listener to foreign speakers as part of the barrier to learning a language. One thing I'd add, at least as a native English speaker in a very international area, not all foreign accents and mistakes are equally well treated. And this may help contribute to and explain why some…

Persian and Russian are part of the same language family as English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

Interesting theory. I think there's also a sociological component as well. We're just far more familiar with them.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#148
post #117

> After a year of struggling with the language, I retook the cognitive assessment, and the results shocked me. My scores had skyrocketed, placing me above average in seven of 10 categories, and average in the other three. My verbal memory score leapt from the bottom half to the 88th — the 88th! — percentile and my visual memory test shot from the bottom 5th percentile to the 50th. Studying a language had been like dr…

While that is completely true, its somewhat unlikely to go from the mid point of the distribution to the tails. Its not impossible, of course, but its less likely. The 5th to the 50th certainly suffers from that problem, however.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#149
Much of the discussion here is focused on the linguistic acquisition aspects of this article. I see the largely ignored wider aspect to be that of skills learning, particularly in light of unlearning and lost plasticity.

The key paragraphs are these:

"[A] 2-year-old’s brain has a substantial neurological advantage, with 50 percent more synapses — the connections between neurons — than an adult brain, way more than it needs. This excess, which is an insurance policy against early trauma, is also crucial to childhood language acquisition, as is the plasticity, or adaptability, of the young brain.

[NB: I challenge the assumption that the excess neural capacity is simply for trauma recovery -- it seems specifically applicable to the very mental plasticity that youthful skill acquisition entails, and which needs to be discarded as concrete skills are laid down.]

"Another advantage a toddler holds is his very lack of experience. After speaking our native language for decades, we adults can’t help but hear the second language through the filter of the first. And this filter doesn’t take decades to develop. Researchers have found that newborn Japanese babies can distinguish between the English “L” and “R” sounds, but if not exposed to Western languages, they begin to lose that ability — not by the age of 6 or even 3 — but by eight months.

"Adult language learners are, to borrow a phrase used by some psycholinguists, too smart for our own good. We process too much data at once, try to get everything right from the get-go and are self-conscious about our efforts. But toddlers instinctively grasp what’s important and are quite content to say, “Tommy hitted me,” as long as Tommy gets what’s coming to him."

That is, if you're trying to learn something, anything, as an adult, you're up against two principle blocks:

• Your brain has physiologically adapted. It's no longer sufficiently plastic to accept novel concepts.

• You've got a litany of previously acquired skills (or biases) which get in the way of the new knowledge. It's a form of Mark Twain's famous "It's not the things you don't know, but what you know for sure that just ain't so".

Or, in this case, just ain't what the new skill you're trying to pick up is.

Which may also help explain youthful hiring bias in software and tech.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#150
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, what are the texts/resources you're getting vocab from? Where do you get shows to watch? Did you pick up on the basics like the alphabet and pronunciation first and study that together? My husband's just like you and beyond knowing words for his favorite foods and some of the lyrics to Gangnam Style, he doesn't know much more. I would like to change that. Plus it'd be nice to practice my rusting Kor…

I learned Hangul years ago from some website. It's impressively easy to learn and makes figuring out pronunciation way easier than writing Korean in a Latin alphabet. There's actually a great list of resources here. http://www.reddit.com/r/korean and more specifically here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Korean/comments/rq3th/the_ultimate_b... Right now I'm using Ankidroid and Anki for Windows and OS X (all free and they sy…

https://translate.google.com/ is a great source for virtual keyboards if you want to practice typing. Select the source language and click the keyboard in the lower left.
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