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The Benefits of Failing at French

nytimes.com

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Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#111
post #85
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I learned French in my mid-20s -- in France. I spent a year learning French at a school and literally couldn't even understand fluent, spoken French by the time my ex-girlfriend moved back to the US. I stayed in France and began dating a French girl who didn't speak English at all -- so we had these weird intellectual/juvenile sounding conversations in the beginning - with me basically speaking confusing, garbled Fre…

My Brazilian friend called this "taking the dictionary to bed".

Or, as the french say: "La meilleure façon d'apprendre une langue étrangère est sur l'oreiller."

(The best way to learn a language is on a pillow.)

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#112
There's a reason why toddlers learn so "easily": They must communicate in order to get what they want.

If you were placed in a similar situation, where you cannot get what you want unless you speak the language, it would not take you very long to learn. I went through this twice in my life: Once between ages 5 and 16 (French), and once between ages 31 and 35 (Japanese). In both cases, it took about 6 months to get the basics, after which the rate of learning slowed a bit due to the decline in novel situations requiring new usage or vocabulary.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#113
post #65

The author hits an important point. I'm a native French speaker and speak to anglophones trying to improve their french everyday and the overwhelming majority gets distracted if they don't get the noun genders right, pick the right verb tenses and all sorts of things like that. They hesitate mid-sentence trying to remember the rules and get it perfectly instead of just saying "Tommy hitted me" like in the article. As…

I learned French in my mid-20s -- in France. I spent a year learning French at a school and literally couldn't even understand fluent, spoken French by the time my ex-girlfriend moved back to the US. I stayed in France and began dating a French girl who didn't speak English at all -- so we had these weird intellectual/juvenile sounding conversations in the beginning - with me basically speaking confusing, garbled Fre…

The movie "The sleeping Dictionary" is based around that http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0242888/?ref_=nv_sr_1

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#114

The author hits an important point. I'm a native French speaker and speak to anglophones trying to improve their french everyday and the overwhelming majority gets distracted if they don't get the noun genders right, pick the right verb tenses and all sorts of things like that. They hesitate mid-sentence trying to remember the rules and get it perfectly instead of just saying "Tommy hitted me" like in the article. As…

It is much better just to embed yourself in the country of the language you want to learn. My Chinese was very bad when I first came to China back in 2002, but I really had no choice because English was not an option in most contexts.

In contrast, I lived in Switzerland for two years and didn't learn a word of French (well, maybe a couple): English was always an option, and I was busy enough working that I had not much time for self study.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#115
post #102

Without realizing it, we think in the language we know[1]. When starting to learn another language, we still think in our native language and translate it to the foreign one. However, when reaching a higher experience with a second/third language, the thought process gradually changes. My native language is French, but very often I have thoughts "in English", because the idea seems easier to express/understand with t…

My first language is Russian. But I spent so long outside of Russian language and culture that my language of thought and speech is English. Not a citation, but a confirmative data point.

Still, I feel that my English speech and thought lacks the nuances I get when my mind and my mouth switches back into Russian.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#116
A couple of points:

1) The guy lists his activities with heavy focus on Rosetta Stone. To me that pretty much invalidates his claims on the spot. RS is not really well respected in language learning circles (at least a couple of years ago, it was not). Pimsleur is better due to its exponential backoff repetition model and it's "how do you say" prompts.

2) I did not see any mention of activities that actually built vocabulary. Not in a "listen to a show" way, but in a "read a book and translate every word you don't understand". I learned English that way. As a Russian, I studied it in school and in private courses to no effect. When I came to Australia, I decided to re-read Tolkien's "The Hobbit" but this time in the original rather than Russian translation. Of course, I did not realize that Tolkien was philologist... So, I may have learnt a bit more of vocabulary and grammar than I really needed for street English.

3) When you learn your first foreign language, you are learning two things at once: language-learning practices and specifics of specific language (vocabulary, grammar, sounds). That's why Esperanto as the first foreign language is great. (http://www.springboard2languages.org/) You learn the practices (in a very supporting community http://lernu.net/) with a very regular language. Then, you can attack a more complex language like French.

4) As an aside, last couple of years, language learning startups were quite popular. Unfortunately, they all try to address global market and don't dive deep enough into any single language. Therefore most of the interesting & academic research that could have really impacted language learning process goes unused. I have about 10 pages of (technical) notes on what _I_ would want from a language-learning website and I have seen less than 10% of it out in the wild.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#117
> After a year of struggling with the language, I retook the cognitive assessment, and the results shocked me. My scores had skyrocketed, placing me above average in seven of 10 categories, and average in the other three. My verbal memory score leapt from the bottom half to the 88th — the 88th! — percentile and my visual memory test shot from the bottom 5th percentile to the 50th. Studying a language had been like drinking from a mental fountain of youth. > > What might explain such an improvement?

What? 'regression to the mean' comes to mind. People shocked by their extremely low scores are often shocked to find that their scores improve over time...

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#118
I tried to learn Mandarin a year ago because I started a relationship with a Chinese girl. The words made no sense (felt just a completely random sounds), got angry and gave up after a couple of days.

A year later, after hearing a lot of Mandarin (she speaks quite a lot of Mandarin over the phone and I spent a month in China), I gave another shot. It feels much easier, more familiar and less random.

Of course, it's a totally anecdotal 'evidence'... But getting familiar with the sound of the language before actually studying might help.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#119
post #106
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I learned Hangul years ago from some website. It's impressively easy to learn and makes figuring out pronunciation way easier than writing Korean in a Latin alphabet. There's actually a great list of resources here. http://www.reddit.com/r/korean and more specifically here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Korean/comments/rq3th/the_ultimate_b... Right now I'm using Ankidroid and Anki for Windows and OS X (all free and they sy…

Sorry to push my own side project but it might be useful to you guys. http://www.toktogi.com It's a popup dictionary extension for Chrome and Firefox that is based on an open source K-E dictionary ( https://github.com/garfieldnate/kengdic ). It still needs a lot of work, but I plan to open source it soon and hopefully allow people to contribute back to and improve the original dictionary as well.

OMG, this is amazing. I've already added it. Really appreciate it, this will definitely come in all sorts of handy.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#120
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Brazilian friend called this "taking the dictionary to bed".

Or, as the french say: "La meilleure façon d'apprendre une langue étrangère est sur l'oreiller." (The best way to learn a language is on a pillow.)

I wouldn't trust anything the French say about learning foreign languages.

(Note: Joke -- I'm a french polyglot. Seriously though nobody speaks English here)

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