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The Benefits of Failing at French

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Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#51

Post by Tiktaalik »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #14
DanielStraight wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French is an official language in 29 countries and spoken by more than 200 million people. It's probably the most widely learned foreign language after English. It's also one of the top 10 languages on the internet. I'm genuinely curious why you would call it a dying language.

That figure includes partial speakers , so people who learned a little French in school but probably have a much better knowledge of say English. With the exception of France most countries that legitimately speak French as the main language are either tiny or third world.

Don't forget Montreal. It's the 8th largest city in North America. It has a rich history of bilingualism, but it's essentially French speaking.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#52

Post by epaladin »

VeejayRampay wrote: post #2

I'm French and I do realize it's a pretty complicated language to learn. Ridiculous amounts of exceptions to every single rule, dozens of tenses (which no one ever uses), lack of general structure, arbitrary genders, it's got it all. My personal piece of advice to anyone: don't waste your time learning French, it's a dying language. Go for Spanish if you need a latin language, it's at least used in Spain, the United…

Seven years of "learning" French in school. I was more conversant in Japanese after a week. French has two non-exceptions to verb conjugation "rules". Japanese has two exceptions. That was a lot of wasted time and I wish there had been more alternatives offered.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#53

Post by renox »

aikah wrote: post #49
VeejayRampay wrote: post #2

I'm French and I do realize it's a pretty complicated language to learn. Ridiculous amounts of exceptions to every single rule, dozens of tenses (which no one ever uses), lack of general structure, arbitrary genders, it's got it all. My personal piece of advice to anyone: don't waste your time learning French, it's a dying language. Go for Spanish if you need a latin language, it's at least used in Spain, the United…

I'm french and I agree,the language is bloated and too complicated. English might be difficult for a french native that didnt learn it at young age like me but it's much more simple than french. I wonder though why french is that complicated,in some other countries you have the official language and dialects,but often the core of the official language is tiny,so if one sticks to that core one will write correct sente…

> I wonder though why french is that complicated,

Mostly simple really: 1) French has a long history so a long time to accumulate warts 2) (nearly) each time, someone tries to remove some of these warts, purists scream loudly.

Why politicians listen to purists instead of thinking that reducing French's complexity could help foreign people learning French is the thing I wonder though..

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#54

Post by refurb »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #51
jiggy2011 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That figure includes partial speakers , so people who learned a little French in school but probably have a much better knowledge of say English. With the exception of France most countries that legitimately speak French as the main language are either tiny or third world.

Don't forget Montreal. It's the 8th largest city in North America. It has a rich history of bilingualism, but it's essentially French speaking.

My understanding is that 80% of people in Montreal use English as their primary language.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#55

Post by sammyo »

zwieback wrote: post #17
spindritf wrote: post #13

Short of cauterizing your own genitals, nothing seems like it would change who you are like speaking in an-other's language. Blech, I'd rather wear someone else's underwear, no thanks, I'll take the 12 credits but no way am I retaining anything. "Well, science says you lose the ability to learn languages as you get older." Oh, did NPR just interview TED? Dummies in other countries and dummies in the CIA learn as adul…

I love TLP but losing your accent is easier said than done. I started learning English when I was a few years old and I've lived in the US for 22 years speaking English 99% of the time. My German accent is still clearly there. I'm not sure what it would take at this point but it's not something that happens easily. I listen to the way other people pronounce words but hearing your own accent is hard. Interestingly, my…

There are actors that grew up in many different countries you have seen in movies that pass just fine as americans. But it's impractical for most folks to work with a dialect coach for years, but it clearly is possible. And outside of LA the demand for dialect coaches is almost zero.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#56

Post by dreamweapon »

contingencies wrote: post #47
barry-cotter wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt until you put Arabic in the same category as Mandarin or Spanish. Vernacular Arabic is as much a single language as vernacular Germanic. Not at all. Mutually unintelligible languages that qualify as Germanic; Nynorsk, Bokmal, Swedish, Danish, Hochdeutsch, Allemanic, at least 4 varieties of Swiss German, Dutch, Frisian, Scots, English, Jamaican Patois, Tok Pisin. [Incredibly v…

Learn a language if you feel like it, or it will be useful. Don't learn it for the money or the career. I agree, this is good advice. Trust me that aside from English all useless unless you can work in them well enough to translate to English. Useless in career - not necessarily. Useless in life - definitely untrue.

In and of themselves, these languages may not be that "useful."

That said, breaking out of the English-only mindset, and practicing the discipline required to become truly fluent in another language (which can carry over to other endeavors in your life) can be incredibly useful -- and perhaps one of the best long-term strategic decisions regarding your intellectual development that you can make.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#57

Post by dreamweapon »

barry-cotter wrote: post #41
dreamweapon wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it's dead to you, obviously. My counter-advice to the above is that on an extremely deep, life experience level it doesn't matter how popular a language is, in numerical terms. Or what will come of that language 500 years from now. What matters is what experiences open up to you, as individual, when you go visit (and live) in those countries, in this life, right. It's the people you meet -- and become friends wi…

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt until you put Arabic in the same category as Mandarin or Spanish. Vernacular Arabic is as much a single language as vernacular Germanic. Not at all. Mutually unintelligible languages that qualify as Germanic; Nynorsk, Bokmal, Swedish, Danish, Hochdeutsch, Allemanic, at least 4 varieties of Swiss German, Dutch, Frisian, Scots, English, Jamaican Patois, Tok Pisin. [Incredibly v…

Could you provide some metrics, please? I'll be happy to confess my ignorance, but I was under the impression that among countries where some form of Arabic is counted among the official languages spoken, these variants were much closer to Modern Standard Arabic than, say, Swedish is to German.

Mutually unintelligible languages that qualify as Germanic; Nynorsk, Bokmal, Swedish, Danish, Hochdeutsch, Allemanic, at least 4 varieties of Swiss German, Dutch, Frisian, Scots, English, Jamaican Patois, Tok Pisin.

BTW, you forgot Kiezdeutsch.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#58

Post by fenomas »

_delirium wrote: post #40
fenomas wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think TLP's accent advice falls squarely into the "fake it until you make it" category - like becoming a confident presenter by impersonating somebody confident when you get on stage. It's not that if you try hard your accent will go away, it's more that you (consciously) do an impression of the accent you're learning. So if you're studying German you go full Ahhhnold. I didn't read that TLP column until I was most…

This is a big stumbling block for Swedes trying to speak Danish (which is a very similar language grammatically, but pronounced quite differently). Going "all in" reminds many people too much of Swedish comedians making fun of how Danish sounds, so they worry they'll sound mocking if they speak like that . So, many will try for a less "exaggerated" Danish accent instead, which ends up not sounding very Danish at all.…

I don't think it actually matters whether you're any good at the impersonation - the point is to convince your brain that you're creating a new persona, rather than trying to change your existing one. (An overarching theme of TLP's writings is how extraordinarily good the brain is at insulating itself from change.)

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#59

Post by Tiktaalik »

refurb wrote: post #54
Tiktaalik wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget Montreal. It's the 8th largest city in North America. It has a rich history of bilingualism, but it's essentially French speaking.

My understanding is that 80% of people in Montreal use English as their primary language.

Your understanding is not consistent at all with the government census stats. French only at home: 56%. English only at home: ~10%. French mainly + other climbs higher.

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2011/as-sa/98-...

It also doesn't seem true that Allophones (born not speaking English or French) necessarily are using English the most as their 2nd language. Allophones using French most often at home is increasing over time.

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/Products/Analytic/c...

Going outside Montreal will yield 90%+ French speakers.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#60

Post by jmhain »

I set out to learn Spanish almost exactly one year ago, deciding it was ridiculous to be monolingual in a world of thousands of languages. My approach was as intensive as the author's; I completed the Duolingo skill tree, read books on grammar and slang, watched, listened to, and read Spanish media and Spanish translations of English media, attended meetups, etc.

While I'm only 23, I experienced the same "mental fountain of youth" effect the author describes. At first, it all sounded like gibberish even if reading along with what I was listening to. My mind refused to accept words and concepts that didn't map one-to-one with English. I repeatedly mixed up similar looking words.

Despite constant failure, I kept at it, and eventually it just "clicked". Spanish errors started to sound like "he hitted me". I went from barely memorizing a few words a day, to successfully internalizing hundreds. And the best part is, all these cognitive benefits have transferred to other realms. I memorize stuff on Anki now just for the hell of it because it's so easy. I am about halfway to being fluent in German after only a month of study. I really can't recommend learning a foreign language enough.

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