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Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

publicpolicy.verizon.com

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Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#171
post #57
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only more had that option.

In SF, WebPass (and MonkeyBrains, from what I hear) are great alternative ISPs. Both do point-to-point wireless. My building shares a symmetric 100Mbps connection to WebPass, and I pretty reliably see 30-40Mbps on my wired network. And I pay significantly less than I had previously paid Comcast. (However, I never used the TV component of my Comcast offer, so the cost structure is presumably different for people who d…

My building in SF is locked in to ATT Uverse. I'd kill for WP or MB.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bartenders will get fined and lose their license if they serve drunk people. Also, calling what I said "word twisting" isn't really addressing their argument, it's more or less just name-calling, which companies are really good at ignoring. To beat them, you've got to do better than that.

> Bartenders will get fined and lose their license if they serve drunk people. only because they don't have a large lobby organization to protect them from the laws ;)

Heh yeah, I mean the "let people get wasted in public" lobby isn't quite as big as the ISP lobby.

The analogy isn't great, I'll agree. I prefer the "water" analogy, myself.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now this is where I don't think consumers are as privy to the technology as they could be. I doubt most Netflix customers adjust their data usage settings with their ISPs in mind. Frankly, I'm not sure they should, but I doubt they're even thinking about that, either way. I'm not going to watch a 480p video because I'm trying to conserve my ISP's capacity. That's silly. Besides, I think Netflix has a vested interest…

Why should they be adjusting their settings "with their ISPs in mind"? They're paying Verizon for "up to X mbps", Netflix is paying Level 3 for something enormous. When the amount the user is requesting exceeds X mbps, then certainly Verizon has zero responsibility to meet that. When it's an appreciable fraction, it's understandable that they don't always meet it - it's "best effort", after all. When it's a small fra…

If I had to have an actual opinion on this, I'd say they shouldn't, and the ISPs should just eat the cost of the upgrades, like they do for all their other network upgrades.

But this just goes all the way back to the "up to" and "unlimited" bullshit verbiage ISPs have been using for years to sell their product.

I just don't think this is as much about net neutrality as people are making it out to be. It's more or less, "Who should pay for this?" and the choices are, "Customers of ISPs" or "Customers of CDNs".

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "sweeping change" is an old legal standard: "common carrier". They're contracted to move bytes from source A to customer B at "up to" X Mbps; so long as (albeit limited) bandwidth is available at any given moment, fill the pipe and shove that data thru regardless of source. Traffic shaping may be fair if the pipe is full, but not if unused bandwidth remains sparsely used based solely on source or content.

Raise your hand if you've contacted your elected representative regarding ISPs becoming Common Carriers. (Full disclosure, I'm not an American and thus have little to no say regrading American ISPs, but I advocate for this in my home country.) /me largely expects crickets in response. Unfortunately I think we just aren't pissed off enough about this as a group yet, evidenced by the lack of action from us and from leg…

Raise your hand if your elected representative has any idea what having ISPs become Common Carriers means or entails. Keep your hand up if 10% of your district also knows. Keep your hand up if you (and your district collectively) can out lobby Comcast, TWC, ATT, Verizon, etc.

I don't know that it's that people aren't pissed off, its probably more that the people who are pissed off are uninformed, will not become informed easily, and will not organize as easily as already well organized and very well funded corporations, lobbyists, and PACs.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#175
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abstraction or not, you are missing the bigger picture. 1) Level3 has offered to split the cost with the Big5 ISP's of upgrading their infrastructure.[1] * This would increase throughput and capacity for both Level3 and the consumer networks. 2) Netflix has offered free Open Connect Appliances to all major ISP's.[2] * This would allow consumer networks to only download a video once , then serve it up locally within t…

In a world where everyone watches Netflix, the traditional peering arrangements dramatically favor companies like Verizon. Unsurprisingly, they're fine with the existing peering arrangements. Companies like Level 3 are offering to "share the cost" of upgrading the networks, because under the traditional arrangements, they would have to bear the full cost of the upgrades. Everyone in this discussion is just looking ou…

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Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#176
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're paying Verizon for a connection to their network, but that doesn't make it Verizon's responsibility to pay to upgrade every intermediate network on the way to every destination a Verizon customer might request data from. That is not how peering on the internet has ever worked. See this circa 1999 article about peering and settlement on the internet: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/ac123/ac147/archived_issues/i.…

Great comment -- it deserves an answer. Imagine for a moment that we're talking about water service instead, and that we live in an alternate reality in which, due to accidents of history, the water network evolved much like our Internet, with peering and settlement agreements between privately owned water networks. So, to borrow your words: you're paying your water service provider for a connection to their water ne…

But the problem here isn't that you can't fill your internet connection, period, but that you can't fill it with traffic from one particular endpoint. There is a bilateral aspect to the problem here that's totally ignored in your hypothetical.

Different example. Air Canada has an unlimited North America flight pass: http://www.aircanada.com/en/offers/air/wallet_na_faq/wallet_.... You can characterize this pass as buying you "unlimited travel to any destination in North America." Okay, so is it Air Canada's fault if you really want to go to Buffalo regularly, but you often have trouble booking a flight because of limited capacity at BUF? Does Air Canada have to pay for the airport upgrades? After all, it's their customers that want to go to Buffalo, and they're paying to travel to any destination in North America.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#177
I'm genuinely curious if the author `@daedyo` [twitter] actually believes what he has written?

This blog post by level3 was fairly enlightening, and in stark contrast to his view/version of this.

http://blog.level3.com/global-connectivity/observations-inte...

As an side, living in a country where ISPs (mostly) doesn't have monopoly, it's funny that these congestion issues never occur here.

Seems like another example where lobbying and money is the underlying issue. https://mayday.us/

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's also not right to say it's reaching Verizon. It's not. It's just hitting the edge of their network. Now you can say that Verizon is responsible for making sure the edge connection works properly. But you could also say that Netflix shouldn't just dump it's entire load onto shitty congested peer points. Think of Verizon as an island city with 10 bridges. Netflix is trying to send 1/3 of all the traffic throug…

> Verizon is saying, use a different bridge they are all open. You're assuming Verizon isn't over-subscribing all of their other peering connections too. > Both are valid arguments. However, one thing to consider is that Netflix could switch ISPS tomorrow and start dumping their load on a different bridge. Your analogy is broken because peering connections aren't like bridges. Expanding a bridge costs millions of dol…

According to Level3 - a 10Gbps link bears only a one-time cost of $10K-$15K USD.[1](see comments)

Chump change for major ISP's.

[1] http://blog.level3.com/global-connectivity/chicken-game-play...

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coldcode notes elsewhere in the thread that to the consumer, the Internet is a requests based system. Your comment, while well written, sounds suspiciously like the Current Push theory of modeling electrical flow: put a huge motor on a small drive, and you'll blow the drive from all the current the motor forces through it. In reality, that's backwards, and the motor simply stalls. (Full disclosure: I'm not an EE, but…

I agree, it ultimately ends up being a cost issue. Analogies just start to break down a bit when you consider the fact that these consumers aren't making these requests of Netflix's CDNs on their own. Netflix is giving them an app that does this, so Netflix the company is actually in charge of the volume and direction of these requests from start to finish. From what I gather from Level3's blog post, they've built ou…

I tend to side on L3's notion that upgrading the interconnects is something with such a large pay-off it's miserly to even consider worrying about it. My understanding of it is that as the pipes get larger demand follows to consume more, and with higher demand comes a greater market to serve. And you can bet many companies salivate at the chance to get a piece of the Netflix pie (including Verizon et al.)!

It always struck me as duplicitous of the ISPs to talk about who holds the cost for the Netflix volume, since most are also attempting to sell in the same market as Netflix (namely streaming video and TV shows). It just smacks of conflict of interest. It's not like Comcast, Verizon, and Time Warner don't all stream _enormous_ amounts of video either, and it's not like I as a consumer care about all the technical nonsense. (I also was terribly underwhelmed by the switch to HD broadcast TV, and generally feel like the signal glitches are so grievously bad and corrupted that surely someone pulled a fast one there.)

Really, I suspect this whole mess may merely be the result of the companies providing the pipes also competing on content, and their roles get muddied. We expect to be able to abstract away all that peering nonsense as a consumer, and since the Internet is so stupefyingly big, creating special cases seems like an unreasonable burden to push on the typical consumer who neither understands not cares how the magic info-pipe works (my personal stance).

Of course the techie part of me has a load of popcorn to see how it turns out. As I noted elsewhere, it kinda doesn't matter who is technically right. My money is on the angry ignorant masses who just want some shows before sleep, and against whomever they blame. So far, my money's on Netflix, as cable companies are somewhat reviled by comparison.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's also not right to say it's reaching Verizon. It's not. It's just hitting the edge of their network. Now you can say that Verizon is responsible for making sure the edge connection works properly. But you could also say that Netflix shouldn't just dump it's entire load onto shitty congested peer points. Think of Verizon as an island city with 10 bridges. Netflix is trying to send 1/3 of all the traffic throug…

> Realistically it's absurd that Netflix isn't use a whole variety of ISPs to manage the load themselves. Other big data providers do it. Why can't they? IIRC, Netflix offered to provide hardware to all the major ISPs that would cache Netflix content at the ISP data centers. Not a single one took them up on the offer.

That was the Open Connect Hardware. Free big storage boxes for all ISP's who wanted them.

They also offered to change their entire distribution model to P2P as-to keep the traffic burden inside the consumer isp's network (which effectively costs them nothing, it's ingress traffic that is the major costs).

Level3 has even offered to split the costs of upgrading the Big5 ISP's peering connections.

All options were refused.

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