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Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

publicpolicy.verizon.com

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Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#141

Post by Alupis »

rayiner wrote: post #136
Alupis wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong -- I'm paying Verizon for access to the internet -- more specifically, for access to Netflix. If I can't get Netflix, I don't pay Verizon. I either get a new ISP, or don't have internet at all. It's rather simple. Verizon's customers are consuming traffic, and it's Verizon's job, as a consumer network , to facilitate consumption of said traffic.

There is no such thing as the "internet." What appears to be the "internet" is just a mesh of interconnected but private networks all running the same protocol. The Cisco article I linked to above shows you what you're actually buying. What you're talking about is an illusion that only exists in software.

You are arguing over the semantics of the word "internet" and completely missing the bigger picture.

I only pay Verizon so that I can have access to Netflix content. No access to Netflix, then I'm not a Verizon customer any longer. Verizon is a Consumer Network -- so by definition, almost all of their traffic will be ingress.

Level3 has a great blog post detailing the issues at hand. Specifically, they state the consumer networks are refusing to upgrade their networks, and this is shifting the burden to Level3. Level3 knows they are refusing, because they have discussed the matter with the "Big 5" ISP's here in the states.

Level3 has even offered to split the cost with the Big5, which as they pointed out, is a win-win for everyone involved. Yet, the Big5 still refused.

http://blog.level3.com/global-connectivity/chicken-game-play...

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#142

Post by flurp »

rhino369 wrote: post #127
wdewind wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't be downvoted for this. It's a reasonable question, it's just not what's happening. The traffic is reaching Verizon (or Comcast etc's) network at reasonable speed, and then congesting.

But it's also not right to say it's reaching Verizon. It's not. It's just hitting the edge of their network. Now you can say that Verizon is responsible for making sure the edge connection works properly. But you could also say that Netflix shouldn't just dump it's entire load onto shitty congested peer points. Think of Verizon as an island city with 10 bridges. Netflix is trying to send 1/3 of all the traffic throug…

The real question is whether Verizon is saying "Use the other bridges" or "If you pay us we can open another bridge for you". What I've read mostly points to the latter and Netflix is either taking a stand against this practice or Verizon wants to much money.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#143

Post by Alupis »

DanBC wrote: post #139
Alupis wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong -- I'm paying Verizon for access to the internet -- more specifically, for access to Netflix. If I can't get Netflix, I don't pay Verizon. I either get a new ISP, or don't have internet at all. It's rather simple. Verizon's customers are consuming traffic, and it's Verizon's job, as a consumer network , to facilitate consumption of said traffic.

> Wrong -- I'm paying Verizon for access to the internet -- more specifically, for access to Netflix. If I can't get Netflix, I don't pay Verizon. I either get a new ISP, or don't have internet at all You might not like the logical conclusion: the ISPs charge people for what they actually use.

Not necessarily. If Level3 is be believed (and they are credible imho), the Big5 ISP's here in the states are just flat-out refusing to make any network upgrades. Level3 has even offered to split the costs with them, since it benefits Level3 as well.

What happened to all that "National Broadband Act" funding the Big5 ISP's got? What about annual infrastructure upgrades? These guys are not coping with the data-driven society the wold is now, and are trying to stretch their buck the furthest (I don't fault for that, it's business).

However, when they wrongly shift the blame to others, it really fires me up.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#144

Post by deeviant »

rayiner wrote: post #136
Alupis wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong -- I'm paying Verizon for access to the internet -- more specifically, for access to Netflix. If I can't get Netflix, I don't pay Verizon. I either get a new ISP, or don't have internet at all. It's rather simple. Verizon's customers are consuming traffic, and it's Verizon's job, as a consumer network , to facilitate consumption of said traffic.

There is no such thing as the "internet." What appears to be the "internet" is just a mesh of interconnected but private networks all running the same protocol. The Cisco article I linked to above shows you what you're actually buying. What you're talking about is an illusion that only exists in software.

That's funny, why does verizon call their service "high speed internet service", when the is no thing as the internet. And if you go to the landing page for high speed internet access on the verizon homepage, it becomes immediately obvious that they are selling it as a internet service.

Should we now start talking about there is no such thing as a video, just 1's and zero's, or, there is no such thing as 1's and 0's, just timed voltage oscillations. Or perhaps in verizon's case, there is no such thing as customer service, just opportunistic moneymaking leveraging monopoly and an army of lobbyists.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#145

Post by diminoten »

HCIdivision17 wrote: post #135
diminoten wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Netflix is pushing traffic to Verizon. Saying they're not is factually incorrect. They're just doing so in response to requests coming out of Verizon networks. Still though, Verizon customers are running Netflix apps, which are making the requests, so it's not like customers are doing the requesting "in the raw", or as "informed" consumers. They're just clicking "play" on Netflix video devices. Also, Verizon cu…

Coldcode notes elsewhere in the thread that to the consumer, the Internet is a requests based system. Your comment, while well written, sounds suspiciously like the Current Push theory of modeling electrical flow: put a huge motor on a small drive, and you'll blow the drive from all the current the motor forces through it. In reality, that's backwards, and the motor simply stalls. (Full disclosure: I'm not an EE, but…

I agree, it ultimately ends up being a cost issue.

Analogies just start to break down a bit when you consider the fact that these consumers aren't making these requests of Netflix's CDNs on their own. Netflix is giving them an app that does this, so Netflix the company is actually in charge of the volume and direction of these requests from start to finish.

From what I gather from Level3's blog post, they've built out a lot of extra capacity to specifically handle the kinds of traffic that a company like Netflix would be pushing, and that the ISPs have not done so, intentionally, and are trying to get Level3 and others to pay the costs for the upgrades.

Why? Well, again from what I've gathered from the submission and Comcast's article on the same topic, it's because they don't want ALL of their customers paying for upgrades that will only benefit the folks who actually use that increased capacity - specifically, Level3's content. If I don't use YouTube and Netflix, the argument goes, why should I have to pay for the upgrades that'll only benefit Netflix and YouTube? The ISPs are therefore saying that the folks providing the content would be the best ones to pay for these upgrades, because that way the costs are only on the consumers paying for the services (in the form of money or ad views), instead of all of the ISP customers.

Now I think the debate can really take place once we start talking about "who benefits" from these upgrades. The ISPs appear to be saying Netflix, et. al. are the only beneficiaries, and Netflix, et. al. are claiming that since the upgrades are taking place on the ISP side, everyone who is a customer of the ISPs would benefit from the upgrades.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#146

Post by [deleted] »

Alupis wrote: post #141
rayiner wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no such thing as the "internet." What appears to be the "internet" is just a mesh of interconnected but private networks all running the same protocol. The Cisco article I linked to above shows you what you're actually buying. What you're talking about is an illusion that only exists in software.

You are arguing over the semantics of the word "internet" and completely missing the bigger picture. I only pay Verizon so that I can have access to Netflix content. No access to Netflix, then I'm not a Verizon customer any longer. Verizon is a Consumer Network -- so by definition, almost all of their traffic will be ingress. Level3 has a great blog post detailing the issues at hand. Specifically, they state the cons…

[deleted]

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#147

Post by Torgo »

trothamel wrote: post #48

It's always kind of strange to me that Verizon only wants to provide settlement-free peering "where the relative traffic flows between an IP network provider and us remain roughly equal". If you were to take that at face value, it means that Verizon would happy to provide free peering if only Netflix modified its client so it uploaded a number of random bytes equal to the size of the stream it was downloading. But th…

It doesn't need to be random. Make it torrent Ubuntu CDs or something. Then you can declare Netflix is helping achieve a public good in addition to calling Verizon's bluff.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#148

Post by dllthomas »

diminoten wrote: post #130
dllthomas wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'[I]t's not like customers are doing the requesting "in the raw", or as "informed" consumers. They're just clicking "play" on Netflix video devices.' I think most people clicking "play" on Netflix devices understand that it entails Netflix sending the content to them. I think most of them probably understand that this is more data than your average webpage, too. Maybe I'm significantly overestimating the intelligence…

My point is that Netflix controls the requests, the whole time. So to say that "customers" are making these requests isn't actually true. Netflix is asking its own servers for the streaming video, which means they can control the volumes at which the data gets sent. Netflix could ask for less data, in the form of lower quality streams, but have intentionally decided to ask for, at all times, the highest possible vide…

It's their software proxying customer requests. It's not like Netflix devices up and decide to watch a movie. It's true that Netflix software is involved at every point, but it's still fundamentally the customer demanding the data. Note that users can opt to stream lower quality than their link supports:

    Adjusting the data usage settings for your account is
    the easiest way to reduce the amount of bandwidth used
    while watching Netflix. There are 4 data usage settings 
    to choose from, each estimate below is per stream:

        Low (0.3 GB per hour)
        Medium (SD: 0.7 GB per hour)
        High (HD: 3 GB per hour, 3D: 4.7 GB per hour, Ultra HD 4K: 7 GB per hour)
        Auto (adjusts automatically to deliver the highest possible quality, based on your current internet connection speed)
From https://help.netflix.com/en/node/87

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#149

Post by fyrabanks »

rhino369 wrote: post #127
wdewind wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't be downvoted for this. It's a reasonable question, it's just not what's happening. The traffic is reaching Verizon (or Comcast etc's) network at reasonable speed, and then congesting.

But it's also not right to say it's reaching Verizon. It's not. It's just hitting the edge of their network. Now you can say that Verizon is responsible for making sure the edge connection works properly. But you could also say that Netflix shouldn't just dump it's entire load onto shitty congested peer points. Think of Verizon as an island city with 10 bridges. Netflix is trying to send 1/3 of all the traffic throug…

> Realistically it's absurd that Netflix isn't use a whole variety of ISPs to manage the load themselves. Other big data providers do it. Why can't they?

IIRC, Netflix offered to provide hardware to all the major ISPs that would cache Netflix content at the ISP data centers. Not a single one took them up on the offer.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#150

Post by wdewind »

rhino369 wrote: post #127
wdewind wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't be downvoted for this. It's a reasonable question, it's just not what's happening. The traffic is reaching Verizon (or Comcast etc's) network at reasonable speed, and then congesting.

But it's also not right to say it's reaching Verizon. It's not. It's just hitting the edge of their network. Now you can say that Verizon is responsible for making sure the edge connection works properly. But you could also say that Netflix shouldn't just dump it's entire load onto shitty congested peer points. Think of Verizon as an island city with 10 bridges. Netflix is trying to send 1/3 of all the traffic throug…

Netflix could do something differently, the question is really whose responsibility is it? The fact that the data gets to the edge of Verizon's network uncontested means the congestion is on Verizon's network. The fact that the traffic was requested by their members, and then delivered uncongested to them tells me it's on Verizon to fix the issue.

In an ideal world Netflix would pay a single ISP for access to "the internet" and their traffic would be handled properly across peered networks. Unfortunately it's not an ideal world, and so Netflix has made a bunch of philosophical compromises to increase service for its customers (including setting up other Fast Lanes). But that doesn't mean we should expect Netflix to continue to do this.

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