Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth • Hacker News Board

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#131

Post by Alupis » Thu, Jul 10, 2014, 7:53 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #128

cs702 wrote: post #51

Verizon is blaming Netflix for sending "an unprecedented amount of traffic" and "not taking steps to ensure that there is adequate capacity for their traffic to enter" Verizon's network. The thing is, Netflix is NOT pushing any of that traffic to Verizon. It is Verizon's customers who are pulling that traffic from NetFlix -- and they are paying Verizon to deliver it !!! More here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id…

You're paying Verizon for a connection to their network, but that doesn't make it Verizon's responsibility to pay to upgrade every intermediate network on the way to every destination a Verizon customer might request data from. That is not how peering on the internet has ever worked. See this circa 1999 article about peering and settlement on the internet: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/ac123/ac147/archived_issues/i.…

Wrong -- I'm paying Verizon for access to the internet -- more specifically, for access to Netflix. If I can't get Netflix, I don't pay Verizon. I either get a new ISP, or don't have internet at all.

It's rather simple. Verizon's customers are consuming traffic, and it's Verizon's job, as a consumer network, to facilitate consumption of said traffic.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#132

Post by Ma8ee » Thu, Jul 10, 2014, 7:54 PM UTC

jpgvm wrote: post #98

maxsilver wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but Verizon also wants Netflix to pay them for that same transit. That's what the whole blog article is about. Verizon trying to invent valid reasons for why they want Netflix to pay them.

They are not inventing reasons. Netflix is serving the content, Netflix pays for it to move. Simple as that. The issue is Layer 3 is not buying enough transit from Verizon to match the disparity in the traffic it wants to send beyond what is covered by settlement free peering. If you look at the diagram on the Verizon post you can see the link is saturated in one direction and only at 30% utilization in the other dir…

I have already paid Verizon to deliver the content. That Netflix doesn't request huge amounts of data from me is beside the point.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#133

Post by wnissen » Thu, Jul 10, 2014, 7:54 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #97

msandford wrote: post #54

From the article: "Netflix sends out an unprecedented amount of traffic." YES! Yes they do! But Netflix doesn't send that traffic for fun and giggles, just to swamp your network and clog up the port. They do it because YOUR CUSTOMERS HAVE ASKED THEM TO and you, Verizon, you duplicitous shitbag, have SOLD THAT CAPABILITY to your customers. They have LITERALLY PAID you to successfully receive up to 75Mbps worth of traf…

They have LITERALLY PAID you to successfully receive up to 75Mbps worth of traffic from ANYONE Aye, there's the rub: "up to". Nothing says (and perhaps deep in the EULA there's the opposite) you'll get that, or even a substantial fraction of unused shared bandwidth, commensurate to your needs. Customers should push the meme that "up to X Mbps" really means "you won't get more than X Mbps, and likely much less". Custo…

Yeah, but we're talking about a 1-5MBps stream here. Even though the headline 75Mbps number is, as you say, a "we promise never to exceed", I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that the ISP provide 7% of the listed capacity.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#134

Post by DennisP » Thu, Jul 10, 2014, 7:54 PM UTC

msandford wrote: post #54

From the article: "Netflix sends out an unprecedented amount of traffic." YES! Yes they do! But Netflix doesn't send that traffic for fun and giggles, just to swamp your network and clog up the port. They do it because YOUR CUSTOMERS HAVE ASKED THEM TO and you, Verizon, you duplicitous shitbag, have SOLD THAT CAPABILITY to your customers. They have LITERALLY PAID you to successfully receive up to 75Mbps worth of traf…

Also, don't they tend to sell service with much higher download capacity than upload? If so it's arguably their fault that traffic is unbalanced.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#135

Post by HCIdivision17 » Thu, Jul 10, 2014, 7:55 PM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #87

cs702 wrote: post #51

Verizon is blaming Netflix for sending "an unprecedented amount of traffic" and "not taking steps to ensure that there is adequate capacity for their traffic to enter" Verizon's network. The thing is, Netflix is NOT pushing any of that traffic to Verizon. It is Verizon's customers who are pulling that traffic from NetFlix -- and they are paying Verizon to deliver it !!! More here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id…

Well, Netflix is pushing traffic to Verizon. Saying they're not is factually incorrect. They're just doing so in response to requests coming out of Verizon networks. Still though, Verizon customers are running Netflix apps, which are making the requests, so it's not like customers are doing the requesting "in the raw", or as "informed" consumers. They're just clicking "play" on Netflix video devices. Also, Verizon cu…

Coldcode notes elsewhere in the thread that to the consumer, the Internet is a requests based system.

Your comment, while well written, sounds suspiciously like the Current Push theory of modeling electrical flow: put a huge motor on a small drive, and you'll blow the drive from all the current the motor forces through it. In reality, that's backwards, and the motor simply stalls. (Full disclosure: I'm not an EE, but man a master electrician I knew thought it was funny.)

Back to the point. Consumers request data, and then expect it to arrive. Netflix offers a service that replies with enormous amounts of data for very little request data. Now, most sites are like this, but video is a caricature of the imbalance typically seen. And Netflix serves a _lot_ of video. So a quick Pareto diagram points right to Netflix for congestion. But none of that is preemptive - all of that data was requested from the Verizon side, and so the word pushing gets you downvoted.

It's just that Netflix's service is less like Newton's equal and opposite force and more like Flubber.

But like all things, there's more to it than just Netflix replying to requests with an asymptotic amount of data. Check out the Level3 blog posts linked elsewhere in this thread, as I think they're a reasonable counterpoint. At least, I thought it was neat.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#136

Post by rayiner » Thu, Jul 10, 2014, 7:56 PM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #131

rayiner wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're paying Verizon for a connection to their network, but that doesn't make it Verizon's responsibility to pay to upgrade every intermediate network on the way to every destination a Verizon customer might request data from. That is not how peering on the internet has ever worked. See this circa 1999 article about peering and settlement on the internet: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/ac123/ac147/archived_issues/i.…

Wrong -- I'm paying Verizon for access to the internet -- more specifically, for access to Netflix. If I can't get Netflix, I don't pay Verizon. I either get a new ISP, or don't have internet at all. It's rather simple. Verizon's customers are consuming traffic, and it's Verizon's job, as a consumer network , to facilitate consumption of said traffic.

There is no such thing as the "internet." What appears to be the "internet" is just a mesh of interconnected but private networks all running the same protocol. The Cisco article I linked to above shows you what you're actually buying. What you're talking about is an illusion that only exists in software.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#137

Post by deeviant » Thu, Jul 10, 2014, 7:56 PM UTC

jpgvm wrote: post #93

ITT: People that don't understand that settlement free peering needs to be mutually beneficial. When you pay Verizon you pay for access to their network. Not access to Netflix's network. Verizon will has transit agreements with some people to use it's network and settlement free peering with other ISPs of similar size. When I go to by transit from Verizon to host my website do I expect to get settlement free peering?…

"When you pay Verizon you pay for access to their network. Not access to Netflix's network."

I don't see it that way, not do I think, the vast majority of US consumers see it that way either.

If you go to the landing page for verizon's high speed internet service, you'll see nothing that says "You are paying for verizon network service, not internet access. The do not call the server "high speed verizon network service", they call it internet service because they know customers do not want access to verizon's network, but the internet.

Also, verizon knows many of their customers want to watch netflix, and they certainly would rather watch a netflix video with 15 seconds of buffering for every minute of actual video (which, funny enough, is probably still less wasted time than in ad supported channels as such is supplied by verizon's tv service). Thus, but fulfilling their promise to connect their customers to the internet via peering relationships to the parts of the internet that their customers demand, they are creating happy customers, how is that not mutually beneficial?

Lastly, you would have to be devoid of all pessimism to not believe this isn't about money, but control. If you look at the money verizon is charging for these peering arrangements, is quite trivial to both netflix and verizon. But it just so happens that netflix is competing with a core product of verizon. Once the peering arrangements go in, verizon has a platform to begin to influence netflix and their ilk.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#138

Post by gabriel34 » Thu, Jul 10, 2014, 7:57 PM UTC

jpgvm wrote: post #93

ITT: People that don't understand that settlement free peering needs to be mutually beneficial. When you pay Verizon you pay for access to their network. Not access to Netflix's network. Verizon will has transit agreements with some people to use it's network and settlement free peering with other ISPs of similar size. When I go to by transit from Verizon to host my website do I expect to get settlement free peering?…

"When you pay Verizon you pay for access to their network" When I pay my ISP I pay for access to the Internet, not to some other net. The customer doesn't have to be preoccupied about any backroom operations necessary to provide the service contracted. OTOH, when I pay Netflix I expect it to be able to provide the content, including having a link with enough capacity.

What Netflix is doing is "bullying" a bigger company into a less favorable deal in a negotiation table. Verizon now has to deal with customer pressure to make a deal sacrificing their profit/incurring in loss. That's the way negotiations are made, you have to know who are the stakeholders, how can they affect the outcome and how can you act on them. If neither side lied then everything is ethically sound.

The outcome will depend on whether Netflix can endure a competitor who offers a better deal to Verizon and wether Verizon will bulge under customer pressure. From where I stand, Verizon is in a better position because its monopoly is stronger.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#139

Post by DanBC » Thu, Jul 10, 2014, 8:00 PM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #131

rayiner wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're paying Verizon for a connection to their network, but that doesn't make it Verizon's responsibility to pay to upgrade every intermediate network on the way to every destination a Verizon customer might request data from. That is not how peering on the internet has ever worked. See this circa 1999 article about peering and settlement on the internet: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/ac123/ac147/archived_issues/i.…

Wrong -- I'm paying Verizon for access to the internet -- more specifically, for access to Netflix. If I can't get Netflix, I don't pay Verizon. I either get a new ISP, or don't have internet at all. It's rather simple. Verizon's customers are consuming traffic, and it's Verizon's job, as a consumer network , to facilitate consumption of said traffic.

> Wrong -- I'm paying Verizon for access to the internet -- more specifically, for access to Netflix. If I can't get Netflix, I don't pay Verizon. I either get a new ISP, or don't have internet at all

You might not like the logical conclusion: the ISPs charge people for what they actually use.

Re: Why is Netflix Buffering? Dispelling the Congestion Myth

#140

Post by HCIdivision17 » Thu, Jul 10, 2014, 8:01 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #128

cs702 wrote: post #51

Verizon is blaming Netflix for sending "an unprecedented amount of traffic" and "not taking steps to ensure that there is adequate capacity for their traffic to enter" Verizon's network. The thing is, Netflix is NOT pushing any of that traffic to Verizon. It is Verizon's customers who are pulling that traffic from NetFlix -- and they are paying Verizon to deliver it !!! More here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id…

You're paying Verizon for a connection to their network, but that doesn't make it Verizon's responsibility to pay to upgrade every intermediate network on the way to every destination a Verizon customer might request data from. That is not how peering on the internet has ever worked. See this circa 1999 article about peering and settlement on the internet: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/ac123/ac147/archived_issues/i.…

I think many may be like me and literally thought we were buying access to the Internet at large. It wasn't until recently that I've had to learn how the thing actually works (for small values of learn and actual - just enough for some intranet hacking). I suspect a lot of the outrage is simply that we feel the service has been deeply misrepresented, from what qualifies as "high speed broadband" to what "Internet" access really is.

I dunno who is going to cave first, but my money's usually on the angry ignorant masses.