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Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

america.aljazeera.com

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Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#81

Post by rtpg »

terranstyler wrote: post #80
rtpg wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>[1] Just check the comment sections in the major German newspapers. Considering the comments I see on websites like the Guardian, I don't know why I'd trust the comments section on any German newspaper. Maybe the Germans like that the US is footing the bill for most of the intelligence gathering in the world.

I don't read the Guardian comment section. What is the difference between the Guardian and a comparable major German newspaper w.r.t. comments?

I'm saying in general comments sections on newspaper's websites do not represent the actual majority opinion of a population.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#82

Post by eru »

arrrg wrote: post #42
tobiasu wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On paper. But the 2+4 treaty is mostly Soviets leave, NATO stays and expands.

So what you are actually saying is, yes, Germany has full sovereignty. Please don’t spread this bullshit. There is (mostly) mutually beneficial strong cooperation with a power-differential. That’s all. Stop spinning your dumb conspiracy theories.

Similar to the UK (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force_in_the...) and a long list of other countries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military...).

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#83

Post by sidcool »

iSnow wrote: post #7
sidcool wrote: post #3

The conspiracy theorist in me tells me that this might be a staged drama by US-German authorities to instill confidence in German citizens. Or may be to deceive Russia.

I doubt this is going to instill confidence. On the contrary, if this goes on, it could damage the German government and boost fringe parties.

I mean in a way that the German citizens might think that their country is standing up against the mighty US.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#84

Post by eru »

fit2rule wrote: post #66
eru wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't the 4+2 treaties restore full sovereignty?

Not fully valid until a Peace Treaty is signed (thus ending the war). The US is intentionally not allowing Germany to pursue such things so that it can maintain its bases on Germany without fuss. Also, I reiterate: the US runs Germanys' intelligence services.

How do I recognize a Peace Treaty when I see one?

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#85

Post by mpweiher »

count wrote: post #71
paglia_s wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the US who's providing security to most of the western world. Who's supposed to protect us from Putin? The NATO? Are you sure Europe couldn't manage its security by itself? I mean, while keeping strong relations and cooperation directly with the US and inside NATO I don't understand why European countries wouldn't be able to defend themselves especially if we started thinking about a stronger cooperation betwe…

http://media.economist.com/images/images-magazine/2011/05/14... Europe isn't financially situated, nor does it seem to have the social stomach for it.

Of course, Europe has a GDP that's greater than the US.

We just don't spend it on an imperial posture and wars of aggression.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#86

Post by count »

mpweiher wrote: post #85
count wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://media.economist.com/images/images-magazine/2011/05/14... Europe isn't financially situated, nor does it seem to have the social stomach for it.

Of course, Europe has a GDP that's greater than the US. We just don't spend it on an imperial posture and wars of aggression.

No doubt. Your freedom to avoid doing so rests (arguably) on the fact that US picks up the tab for all that posturing on your behalf.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#87

Post by tikums »

legulere wrote: post #74
susi22 wrote: post #28

Merkel doesn't care that much and she --even though I hate to say it-- is right that we shouldn't. This spying case isn't a big deal. It doesn't hurt Germany. Also the spying on her phone last year. She didn't really care all that much. After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. Germany can't afford a dent in the relationship with the US. It's the US who's providing security to most of the western world…

The Americentrism on Hacker news is just insane. Europe doesn't need America to protect Europe from Russia. The reason why Europeans dislike the USA has pretty much stayed the same since long: The aggressive foreign politic and parts of the culture (you'll find a translation of american conditions as a set expression in almost all languages here). Nothing much changed.

The Baltic States would like to disagree with you. France is selling Mistral warships to Russia, and a large part of Europe depends on Russia's natural gas. The local population on the border with Russia, including Poland, does not feel that Europe alone can protect them.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#88

Post by arrrg »

mschuster91 wrote: post #78
tobiasu wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question is: If Germany is still occupied, what is it that it can not do?

Stand up to the shit the NSA is doing. Eject those fucking bastards who operate the NSA listening posts in Germany. Seriously, everyone who works for the NSA has lost all my respect. You're undermining civil rights for everyone including yourself.

You do understand the difference between power differentials combined with different priorities and coercion by force?

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#89

Post by igl »

susi22 wrote: post #28

Merkel doesn't care that much and she --even though I hate to say it-- is right that we shouldn't. This spying case isn't a big deal. It doesn't hurt Germany. Also the spying on her phone last year. She didn't really care all that much. After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. Germany can't afford a dent in the relationship with the US. It's the US who's providing security to most of the western world…

How much time you wasted reading spiegel... i can't imagine. You go back to the cold war era as if nothing happend the last 20 years and blather about meaningless surveys and feel gooderies. Very long message without any content.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#90

Post by igl »

bayesianhorse wrote: post #37
terranstyler wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason they don't do it, in spite of nearly everyone [1] distrusting the US gov't, makes me wonder what kind of leverage the US secret services have. It also lends some credence to the "Germany was never really souvereign" theory. [1] Just check the comment sections in the major German newspapers.

Non-Souvereignty is largely regarded as a wild conspiracy theory. And really, what kind of evidence is there? Inevitably, signs of "foreign control" turns out to be some form of competition, cooperation, trade or just plain common interests. What counts more is that Germans are allowed to say anything they want, there is no evidence of tampering in elections, the press is free and extensive, and people can largely do…

It is not plain stupid. It's actually a good opportunity to figure out what the Grundgesetzbuch is (yes, it is actually not a valid 'constitution') Even Scheuble said the sovereignty issues went into 'ad absurdum' since ww2. There is contract after contract after contract. Germany is in so much need of a rewrite of its law books. Everything is corrected by extensions and special rule. The amount of paperwork germans produce is INSANE and should easily push someone to think "Wait there is something f'ed here".

- Say anything they want: Unless you mention the H with the J's... and cough Horst Köhler cough

- No evidence of tampering in elections: mmmmmmh there are always issues in the east and there is always something coming up in small districts or states. They are not major but important nonetheless (Read: Local press)

- The press is free and extensive: LOL!!!!!!!!! Axel Springer and Spiegel dictate the opinion here, everyone else is a jew-baby-eating holocost denier.

- people can largely do as they please: yes, if they can afford a lawyer to help them with the paperwork.

Not getting into this stuff and just accepting everything would be plain stupid.

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