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I'd say Germany is merely posturing with the US in order to win a seat on the "Five Eyes" spying alliance. Angela Merkel eyes place for Germany in US intelligence club - http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/e2492a3a-3d7a-11e3-9928-00144... US lawmakers push for German entrance to Five Eyes spy alliance - http://www.dw.de/us-lawmakers-push-for-german-entrance-to-fi...
Earlier quoted context omitted.
But then where would we get most of our sigint from, if not from the NSA? Its not like we have those capabilities ourselves. But I agree that Germany is starting to look a little.... foolish, but there is no easy way out for us. We need the USA more than they need us.
Apparently, most of the data NSA collects is useless. And even with that data, other intelligence agencies (read: other countries') are often better informed than the Americans. Having the most amount of data is not the same has having the best intelligence agency. How can data be useful if you don't know what it's for? German intelligence is likely more sophisticated than American intelligence.[0] Of course, as with…
Earlier quoted context omitted.
But then where would we get most of our sigint from, if not from the NSA? Its not like we have those capabilities ourselves. But I agree that Germany is starting to look a little.... foolish, but there is no easy way out for us. We need the USA more than they need us.
Apparently, most of the data NSA collects is useless. And even with that data, other intelligence agencies (read: other countries') are often better informed than the Americans. Having the most amount of data is not the same has having the best intelligence agency. How can data be useful if you don't know what it's for? German intelligence is likely more sophisticated than American intelligence.[0] Of course, as with…
Do you have any sources for these claims?
As a German, I find the German reaction really pathetic. No, don't ask somebody for assistance who has just proven (again) that you can't trust him on that level. Do your own investigations, and find out who was involved. If any of the involved people were US diplomats, expel them from the country (and escalate to the UN? dunno if that's done). If not, go the normal route through the justice system. On a political le…
yes - make an enemy out of the most powerful intelligence agency in the world in fact lets expel their embassy too!
Also, if making an enemy seems to be the only option to retain sovereignty and protect human rights, it's an option that must be considered, at least.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Well stated, who coined this one?
Earlier quoted context omitted.
yes - make an enemy out of the most powerful intelligence agency in the world in fact lets expel their embassy too!
Well, given the alternative and some modest regard for basic human rights (such as, e.g., stated in the German constitution [1]), they are legally bound to do exactly that. [1] http://dejure.org/gesetze/GG/10.html
That this wasn't done was illegal.
The biggest fear for Merkel is twofold:
- Industry espionage. This would attack Germany at what they're best at and be huge problem. USA has been lucky to not be caught about that (in Germany).
- The much bigger problem for Merkel is however the growing Anti-Americanism in Germany. There has always been a good amount of it. But mostly, Germans see the US as a partner. There is in huge decline and it's a growing problem. Germans are much more serious about their privacy than Americans and the spying scandal didn't help America. Merkel also knows that she has to listen much more to the German public than for instance Obama has to listen to Americans. Germany has a very well functioning Democracy and any pressure from the public will quickly result in resignations or losing the next election. Germany has done this before: Kohl's affair got his party out. The FDP got thrown out of the parliament last year. You can quickly go from 40% to under 20% in Germany. Due to the many US scandals in the last 2 years, Germans see America very very skeptic these days. Der Spiegel yesterday's issue has some numbers: Who should Germany work together with? USA: 56%. Russia: 53%.
If you read many of the forums in Germany you'll see the growing dissatisfaction with the US as a partner. And more and more understanding for Putin these days.
My point of this post is: What this means it that if USA continues to bully the German people, then Merkel will be forced to take action and do something that she doesn't actually want to. She knows very well that America is extremely important and without a good relationship things will get much tougher in Europe/Germany. After all Germany is benefiting from the huge security the US provides to us. But Germans don't think that far ahead and only see the bully in America these days. I hope it doesn't get this far that Merkel is forced (by the German people/media) into getting distance from America since it would hurt both, Germany and the US. I'm very certain that Obama know that Merkel will always be his friend. But I'm not so sure if he realizes that the German people can make Merkel do something that she otherwise wouldn't do.
America: Watch out how far you take the bullying. It might just happen that the next generation of Westerners will end up hating you in 10-20 years down the road. And then, you will have no friends left but only enemies. What Obama and America's government does can be very dangerous for America in the future.
Merkel doesn't care that much and she --even though I hate to say it-- is right that we shouldn't. This spying case isn't a big deal. It doesn't hurt Germany. Also the spying on her phone last year. She didn't really care all that much. After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. Germany can't afford a dent in the relationship with the US. It's the US who's providing security to most of the western world…
The US is not just Germanys' biggest partner - it controls Germanys' sovereignty. The German intelligence services are all run from Washington. When Merkel says 'it does not matter', its because its really not relevant that America is spying on Germany: its allowed to. Germany lost WW2, and has not had a restoration of the sovereignty of its intelligence services in its constitution. That part is still held by the occupying power.
Merkel doesn't care that much and she --even though I hate to say it-- is right that we shouldn't. This spying case isn't a big deal. It doesn't hurt Germany. Also the spying on her phone last year. She didn't really care all that much. After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. Germany can't afford a dent in the relationship with the US. It's the US who's providing security to most of the western world…
>After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. The US is not just Germanys' biggest partner - it controls Germanys' sovereignty. The German intelligence services are all run from Washington. When Merkel says 'it does not matter', its because its really not relevant that America is spying on Germany: its allowed to. Germany lost WW2, and has not had a restoration of the sovereignty of its intelligence servi…