How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink • Hacker News Board

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#31

Post by DanBC » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 9:03 PM UTC

thegeomaster wrote: post #23

I have this exact same problem. I see merchandise and slogans and whatnot targeting the "geek culture". I hate that stuff, the "witty" and "nerdy" T-shirts with stupid inner jokes about programming, I hate the "developer-targeted" ads with stereotypical geek talk I'm bombarded with, I hate all that, and would never want to be a part of it. I feel it's the same that these women get because tech is getting pink. But I…

You're applying your dislike of geek-targeted stuff to the wrong items.

Stop thinking about how you react to t-shirts with stupid jokes about programming; imagine a cookery book assuming that you are, because you are a geek, incompetent in the kitchen and that you need help with buying eggs from the store and need instructions on how to cook eggs.

Or imagine a set of low quality kitchen equipment that has those "Roses are #ff0000" style slogans on. Does that in anyway make cooking more accessible to you?

A bunch of people on HN are good at cooking. They don't want that kind of pointless targeting. They want better specs, better access to information, and so on.

I imagine, but I do not know, that women don't just want pink colour themes for their code editor.

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#32

Post by _bfhp » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 9:06 PM UTC

andrewflnr wrote: post #22

_bfhp wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you think female interest in jewelry comes from? Are you implying that interest in jewelry is inborn in women? You are begging the question. The professor is concerned with general culture's image of women, which is perpetuated when female programmers are shown to be printing pink jewelry and perpetually enraptured by childish flowery borders. The existence of individual women who enjoy jewelry for the aesth…

It doesn't really matter why women like jewelry. It seems to me (as a man (with a sister)) that if it's not biological, it's sufficiently deeply ingrained as to make little difference in the short term. That's where they are today, so it at least makes sense to try to talk to them there. But I think you and I agree it should not be the central point. We've got to figure out how to teach math properly.

Pop-up ads make sense too, don't they?

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#33

Post by guard-of-terra » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 9:06 PM UTC

_bfhp wrote: post #28

guard-of-terra wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is evidence that Homo Sapiens settlements are accompanied with jewelry findings. As far as I know this is one of defining differences with other Homo species, even Neanderthals.

Cool, does the evidence include the finding that only the women of the settlements wore the jewelry?

No. It may turn out that both genders have similar inborn affinity towards wearing jewelry, which is then truncated by society.

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#34

Post by andrewflnr » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 9:07 PM UTC

_bfhp wrote: post #8

guard-of-terra wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Are you implying that interest in jewelry is inborn in women?" This is an extremelly important question with regards to history of our species, so if you by some chance have an answer be sure to share it with us along with rationale.

It's not. Such a thing would be impossible. Look up "gender socialization" and read about girlhood: http://www.metafilter.com/121190/teenage-girls-they-havent-b... http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/womens-blog/2014/jan... http://sodisarmingdarling.tumblr.com/post/34106027759/what-i... http://rebeccahains.wordpress.com/2014/01/20/is-my-son-smart...

I think what's happening here, and in a lot of other cases, is that culture [0] tends to sieze on real (in this case IMO) asymmetries (girls care more about appearance than men) and blow it far out of proportion. I'm not justifying it, not even close; I find it horrifying. I'm saying that it has a seed in reality, mixed with a freight of repression and poorly-handled social revolutions, a beautiful thing corrupted. You have to wonder, if not from some inborn difference, how did this vast asymmetry come about?

All this to say, those articles are not evidence about any putative inborn interest in jewelry. They're perfectly consistent with either theory.

[0] Yes that's a bit of a vague term. I take it to mean something like, "what everyone around you is saying/doing".

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#35

Post by _bfhp » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 9:10 PM UTC

thegeomaster wrote: post #23

I have this exact same problem. I see merchandise and slogans and whatnot targeting the "geek culture". I hate that stuff, the "witty" and "nerdy" T-shirts with stupid inner jokes about programming, I hate the "developer-targeted" ads with stereotypical geek talk I'm bombarded with, I hate all that, and would never want to be a part of it. I feel it's the same that these women get because tech is getting pink. But I…

Women are historically and systematicall disadvanted as a class of people. "Geeks" hardly are -- in fact to become a target of "geek culture" marketing requires a significant degree of advantage in the first place. There's one difference.

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#36

Post by jiggy2011 » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 9:10 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #26

oillio wrote: post #9

From the article: "It seems so degrading," Wheat said. "If you're a girl interested in building websites, you're a 'web diva.' If you're a boy, you're a web developer." ------------------------------------- I have seen many a job posting looking for web ninjas, rockstars, and the like. Our industry has a history of being rather informal, and often catering to the narcissistic side of developers. Sometimes this is for…

Ninja is someone skillful - in various contexts. Rockstar is someone successful - in all kinds of contexts. I would much rather be called one of those then "diva".

The original meaning of Diva "A diva is a celebrated female singer; a woman of outstanding talent in the world of opera, and by extension in theatre, cinema and popular music." (according to wikipedia) so very similar to "rockstar".

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#37

Post by watwut » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 9:12 PM UTC

thegeomaster wrote: post #23

I have this exact same problem. I see merchandise and slogans and whatnot targeting the "geek culture". I hate that stuff, the "witty" and "nerdy" T-shirts with stupid inner jokes about programming, I hate the "developer-targeted" ads with stereotypical geek talk I'm bombarded with, I hate all that, and would never want to be a part of it. I feel it's the same that these women get because tech is getting pink. But I…

Because stereotypes that apply to women are usually about us being stupid, unable to manage finances, being weak, caring only about things like jewelry, not understanding politics, philosophy or anything that requires brain. If you see something pinkified or "for women", you can safely assume it is also dumbed down. It is not always so, but it happens to be true often enough.

And mostly, while many people believe stereotypes about women and tend to judge individual women through them, I found that people are less prone to do the same with geek related stereotypes. If they know you are programmer, you get the benefit of the doubt and people are willing to accept you are not borderline autistic.

On the other hand, convincing them you know your stuff is harder if you are women.

Probably related, negative stereotypes about geeks are equally irritating if I hear them too much, but they are much easier to avoid. You just do not hear nor read them as often as some stupid jokes about women. There are also many positive stereotypes about geeks (geeks being geniuses), positive stereotypes about women ends up pretty much with us being "nurturing".

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#38

Post by _bfhp » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 9:13 PM UTC

randunel wrote: post #27

I don't get one thing. If only 18% of the tech graduates are women, why do people (see wsj articles and random blogs) complain about companies "gender imbalance"[1] (not hiring 50% women and 50% men)? Wouldn't that be positive discrimination? As this article states, 18.2% of the graduates are women, but only 15% of the employees share the same gender, so the gap is 3.2%. Personally, I don't consider that 3.2% as bein…

That's a good point. Criticizing top tech companies is more marketable as journalism than doing deeper cultural analysis -- so you aren't going to see the women doing the deeper cultural analysis as often (though I would argue that this article does just that). You should read up on what feminists are writing lately.

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#39

Post by watwut » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 9:16 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #36

watwut wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ninja is someone skillful - in various contexts. Rockstar is someone successful - in all kinds of contexts. I would much rather be called one of those then "diva".

The original meaning of Diva "A diva is a celebrated female singer; a woman of outstanding talent in the world of opera, and by extension in theatre, cinema and popular music." (according to wikipedia) so very similar to "rockstar".

Yes, but that is not how it is used in everyday English. That word is not used too often of when it is, it does not refer to musical talent.

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#40

Post by andrewflnr » Sun, Jul 06, 2014, 9:17 PM UTC

_bfhp wrote: post #32

andrewflnr wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't really matter why women like jewelry. It seems to me (as a man (with a sister)) that if it's not biological, it's sufficiently deeply ingrained as to make little difference in the short term. That's where they are today, so it at least makes sense to try to talk to them there. But I think you and I agree it should not be the central point. We've got to figure out how to teach math properly.

Pop-up ads make sense too, don't they?

In a sense, but that's a bad analogy. If you want to make unflattering comparisons to advertising, the general concept of targetted advertising is closer.