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How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

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Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#21

Post by guard-of-terra »

_bfhp wrote: post #15
spindritf wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would a tendency to adorn oneself not be innate? Seems pretty universal to me. Why should nurture be the default assumption? I'm sorry but your answer is terrible, akin to "look up sexual selection and read about genetics."

"a tendency to adorn" is not the same as "a tendency to adorn oneself with jewelry", which is what I've been talking about -- are you talking to me? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Why should the non-existence of God be the default assumption?

There is evidence that Homo Sapiens settlements are accompanied with jewelry findings. As far as I know this is one of defining differences with other Homo species, even Neanderthals.

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#22

Post by andrewflnr »

_bfhp wrote: post #3
tzs wrote: post #2

> Last month, Google announced its plan to spend $50 million over the next three years encouraging young women to give coding a try. The website for the project features articles about inspiring women, like Erica Kochi, who leads UNICEF's Innovation Unit. The first item on a page of coding projects for girls to try is a 3-D-printed bracelet. > "It's insulting, not only because it's highly gendered, but also because i…

Where do you think female interest in jewelry comes from? Are you implying that interest in jewelry is inborn in women? You are begging the question. The professor is concerned with general culture's image of women, which is perpetuated when female programmers are shown to be printing pink jewelry and perpetually enraptured by childish flowery borders. The existence of individual women who enjoy jewelry for the aesth…

It doesn't really matter why women like jewelry. It seems to me (as a man (with a sister)) that if it's not biological, it's sufficiently deeply ingrained as to make little difference in the short term. That's where they are today, so it at least makes sense to try to talk to them there. But I think you and I agree it should not be the central point. We've got to figure out how to teach math properly.

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#23

Post by thegeomaster »

I have this exact same problem.

I see merchandise and slogans and whatnot targeting the "geek culture". I hate that stuff, the "witty" and "nerdy" T-shirts with stupid inner jokes about programming, I hate the "developer-targeted" ads with stereotypical geek talk I'm bombarded with, I hate all that, and would never want to be a part of it. I feel it's the same that these women get because tech is getting pink.

But I respond to this by ignoring what annoys me. I don't feel offended when I, as someone who likes to program, is looked at through the eyes of these "geek" stereotypes. Why are these women so offended because someone is catering to some stereotypes that apply to women? I don't feel degraded when companies try to get me to purchase their VPS hosting by targeting me with ads that cater to stereotypes that apply to developers.

This kind of stuff will always happen to almost all demographics. Quite honestly, from my position, I think this is overreacting.

Of course I would love to see more women in tech, and I would do all I can to help that happen. But I think this is fighting a wrong fight. There ought to be some work on helping teenage girls overcome the stereotypes about tech they acquire in high school. But this just seems getting offended because of something that happens to everyone who is part of a certain demographic.

I see that this kind of comment is strongly frowned upon, so if you downvote, please be so kind as to also reply to me and explain your viewpoint on this.

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#24

Post by _bfhp »

spindritf wrote: post #18
_bfhp wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a tendency to adorn" is not the same as "a tendency to adorn oneself with jewelry", which is what I've been talking about -- are you talking to me? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Why should the non-existence of God be the default assumption?

Why is nature a somehow extraordinary claim and nurture is not? That was my question. "a tendency to adorn" is not the same as "a tendency to adorn oneself with jewelry" The latter is a subset of the former, OK. But I completely don't see the relevance.

The most complex kinds of objects that chimpanzees craft are tools. To posit that a psychological propensity for pieces of jewelry (a human invention) is inborn in only women is extraordinary and reeks of post-hoc logic. To posit that it is cultural meme is obviously not. Do you not understand this intuitively? Are you being 100% honest with me?

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#25

Post by jorgis »

_bfhp wrote: post #3
tzs wrote: post #2

> Last month, Google announced its plan to spend $50 million over the next three years encouraging young women to give coding a try. The website for the project features articles about inspiring women, like Erica Kochi, who leads UNICEF's Innovation Unit. The first item on a page of coding projects for girls to try is a 3-D-printed bracelet. > "It's insulting, not only because it's highly gendered, but also because i…

Where do you think female interest in jewelry comes from? Are you implying that interest in jewelry is inborn in women? You are begging the question. The professor is concerned with general culture's image of women, which is perpetuated when female programmers are shown to be printing pink jewelry and perpetually enraptured by childish flowery borders. The existence of individual women who enjoy jewelry for the aesth…

Passing out mirrors and nail files at a social event for women interested in programming is like passing out hammers and dimensional lumber at a social event for men interested in fashion design.

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#26

Post by watwut »

oillio wrote: post #9

From the article: "It seems so degrading," Wheat said. "If you're a girl interested in building websites, you're a 'web diva.' If you're a boy, you're a web developer." ------------------------------------- I have seen many a job posting looking for web ninjas, rockstars, and the like. Our industry has a history of being rather informal, and often catering to the narcissistic side of developers. Sometimes this is for…

Ninja is someone skillful - in various contexts. Rockstar is someone successful - in all kinds of contexts. I would much rather be called one of those then "diva".

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#27

Post by randunel »

I don't get one thing. If only 18% of the tech graduates are women, why do people (see wsj articles and random blogs) complain about companies "gender imbalance"[1] (not hiring 50% women and 50% men)? Wouldn't that be positive discrimination? As this article states, 18.2% of the graduates are women, but only 15% of the employees share the same gender, so the gap is 3.2%. Personally, I don't consider that 3.2% as being hugely discriminatory, but rather expected, see below.

The problem starts even before formal education. In the country I was raised in, young women get an education which can be summarized by "get a husband to take care of you, cook and have his children". As long as parents have this mentality, their girls get no incentive to continue with college or anything technical, because this path is unknowingly inhibited since childhood. Most developed countries rely heavily on imported workforce, so a lot of Yahoo's and Google's employees come from countries where the percentage of women graduating in tech is far less than the 18.2% of women graduating in the US.

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#28

Post by _bfhp »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #21
_bfhp wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a tendency to adorn" is not the same as "a tendency to adorn oneself with jewelry", which is what I've been talking about -- are you talking to me? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Why should the non-existence of God be the default assumption?

There is evidence that Homo Sapiens settlements are accompanied with jewelry findings. As far as I know this is one of defining differences with other Homo species, even Neanderthals.

Cool, does the evidence include the finding that only the women of the settlements wore the jewelry?

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#29

Post by hyperpape »

thegeomaster wrote: post #23

I have this exact same problem. I see merchandise and slogans and whatnot targeting the "geek culture". I hate that stuff, the "witty" and "nerdy" T-shirts with stupid inner jokes about programming, I hate the "developer-targeted" ads with stereotypical geek talk I'm bombarded with, I hate all that, and would never want to be a part of it. I feel it's the same that these women get because tech is getting pink. But I…

Two things: first people are different, and "it doesn't bother me" doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't bother someone else.

Second, and probably more importantly, there is an issue of scale. I find the Big Bang Theory stupid and obnoxious, but I don't think any stereotyping I've dealt with in my life matches what I hear about from friends of mine who are Black or women or Muslim. It's easier to be easygoing about things when you know that they won't really affect you.

Re: How not to attract women to coding: Make tech pink

#30

Post by _bfhp »

oillio wrote: post #19
_bfhp wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing their point. "Ninjas" and "rockstars" aren't particularly gendered (they actually are and we both know it but who would be honest enough to admit such a thing?) but "diva" certainly is. The writer's problem is not the lack of formality -- is that really what you took away?

You just made my counter argument for me. Ninjas are definitely gendered. Yes, the argument is about formality. The claim is that "diva" is degrading because it is unprofessional and narcissistic, where "web developer" is gender neutral and professional. My point is, there are many many examples of non-gender neutral and unprofessional references in our industry. Diva is not degrading, it is targeting a specific audi…

How is that not taking liberties with interpretation? It's also possible that the writer simply feels that the industry (who said anything about "society"?) should strive to be gender neutral. More than one woman is referenced in the OP article and they have opinions that differ by nuanced degrees.
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