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Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

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Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#61

Post by downandout »

danielweber wrote: post #57
downandout wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I disagree with them, there are a multitude of laws in most countries that make operating a TOR exit node a very bad idea. The concept of criminal responsibility for enabling the illegal acts of others, even when you don't know specifically what others are going to do with the tools you provide, is well established in the US and other countries. Perfect example: Ryan Holle of Florida is serving life without par…

There is something big missing from that summary of Holle: he knew his friends were going to commit a burglary.[1] Without that connection that puts him on the hook for a felony, he wouldn't be facing life for felony murder.[2] [1] He disputes his point, which is fair enough, but the court has found otherwise. [2] Someone could point out the three-felonies-a-day thing here. EDIT for footnote 2 Flordia's felony murder…

Whether he knew or not (he says he didn't believe that they were going to do it), the comparison to TOR-related cases is still appropriate. If one of these cases went to trial in the US, you would hear the prosecutor telling the jury about TOR's seedy reputation, and that because of that reputation, any reasonable person would have known that illegal activity was likely to occur. Under federal and most state laws, that's enough to make someone culpable.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#62

Post by pbhjpbhj »

SnotJockey wrote: post #9
wfjackson wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the logic of the court is that the ISPs do no provide essentially anonymous access. ISPs can and do turn over customer info when ordered by courts/law enforcement.

But the customer info turned over is not necessarily the guilty party either. If you have free wifi in your cafe now you're responsible for anything illegal your clients do? It's a bad judgement on all counts.

Do you really consider it a bad judgement, or would you rather say it's a bad law?

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#63

Post by peterjancelis »

It's too easy to scare people from hosting tor exit nodes right now.

I think the way forward is to incorporate some use based digital currency payments to compensate exit node operators for their risk.

Make it a business and let the market decide the insurance premium needed.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#64

Post by jdjb »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #60
malka wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When someone is condamned for something online-related (piracy, CP, etc.), we should obviously arrest all the owners of routers between the source and the target. They are accomplice because they helped the data to transit. That's only commom sense ! /s

Just running network equipment doesn't make you aware of it's use though. Tor users know through high-profile cases that Tor is being used for drugs deals and other criminal activities - but they run the exit nodes in the face of this. I'm not saying the law is correct (nor wrong) just that the application appears to be valid. Yes, there are high-moral reasons to run an exit node too.

ISPs know that the internet is used for drug deals and criminal activities. Should we prosecute them too?

Gun dealers also know their guns can be used to shoot people. Are they culpable in every murder?

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#65

Post by danielweber »

downandout wrote: post #61
danielweber wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is something big missing from that summary of Holle: he knew his friends were going to commit a burglary.[1] Without that connection that puts him on the hook for a felony, he wouldn't be facing life for felony murder.[2] [1] He disputes his point, which is fair enough, but the court has found otherwise. [2] Someone could point out the three-felonies-a-day thing here. EDIT for footnote 2 Flordia's felony murder…

Whether he knew or not (he says he didn't believe that they were going to do it), the comparison to TOR-related cases is still appropriate. If one of these cases went to trial in the US, you would hear the prosecutor telling the jury about TOR's seedy reputation, and that because of that reputation, any reasonable person would have known that illegal activity was likely to occur. Under federal and most state laws, th…

Legally, "you should have known something fishy was going to occur" is a very different beast from "you knowingly participated in a felony conspiracy, and a co-conspirator committed murder that depended on your material aid."

Home invasions have a tendency to end up with someone dead. Don't help your friends commit them by giving them guns or the vehicles to get there. (Also, don't be the getaway driver for a bank robbery.)

Without the court finding that Holle knew his friends were going to commit burglary, the prosecutor could wave his arms all he wanted about how he should have known his friends were scumbags and he should not have lent them even his watch, but the actual legal requirements for felony murder would have fallen apart.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#66

Post by giancarlostoro »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #40
giancarlostoro wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lawmakers aren't as intelligent as programmers. What's worse is, instead of just telling him to turn off the exit node now he's seen as a criminal by the system for doing absolutely nothing. Imagine applying for a job and trying to explain to them why you were arrested, especially if the interviewer is not tech savvy it might not look so good.

> Lawmakers aren't as intelligent as programmers. What's worse is, instead of just telling him to turn off the exit node now he's seen as a criminal by the system for doing absolutely nothing. Imagine applying for a job and trying to explain to them why you were arrested, especially if the interviewer is not tech savvy it might not look so good. He did not receive a criminal record.

Oh, I must of read it wrong then.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#67

Post by mike_hearn »

xbadxapple wrote: post #35
fredsted wrote: post #10

Is this is the "big brother" plan to eradicate anonymity services? Just argue "child porn!" and arrest everyone? The law quoted was: >Not only the immediate perpetator commits a criminal action, but also anyone who appoints someone to carry it out, or anyone who otherwise contributes to the completion of said criminal action. Anyone who contributes? Wouldn't this include ISPs or perhaps even the application server te…

Unfortunately the mainstream media has taken a stern stance of building a negative image of those services. You always get to read how it's full of pedophiles and drug traffic. The fact that such services help dissident journalists, bloggers or political figures or are invaluable in case of repressive internet shut-down seems to escape their spotlight. This generalization of tech phenomenon which can be used for both…

The general assumption in both the public mind and law is that anonymous == criminal, because of the "if you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing to fear" argument.

The long term downward trend in the trustedness of institutions has been steadily undermining this argument which is why, I think, things like Tor exist at all, but public attitudes change slowly.

In the case of Tor, it's slower / less convenient than usual browsing and is otherwise the same except for being more anonymous. So it's very easy to plant the idea in people's minds that there's no point in using it unless you're up to no good. And the Tor project doesn't really help here - they talk about the legitimate uses on their website but don't point to concrete examples (iirc), e.g. they say the military use it, but provide no real evidence of that. I think actually the UK child porn censors use it as well because it's a source of free proxies and child porn hosting sites know their IP addresses and block them, which is a pretty funny story, but this was mentioned in some talk and I don't think it's on their website.

To make things worse, the internet itself is rapidly converging on the consensus that Tor isn't worth it. Witness the widespread blocking of exit nodes that occurs these days. Tor is losing the argument not just in court but elsewhere too.

IMHO running Tor exits will not become less dangerous any time soon unless Tor finds a way to significantly boost "obviously legit" usage. For that they'd need to provide a Tor browser that isn't geared towards the total-anonymity-or-die crowd. VPN services like HotSpot Shield absolutely dominate Tor in terms of usage because they're much easier t use and don't do stuff like disable Flash and constantly wipe cookies, which makes them much more popular for people trying to evade national censorship but not treat the destination service as hostile.

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#68

Post by vixin »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #60
malka wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When someone is condamned for something online-related (piracy, CP, etc.), we should obviously arrest all the owners of routers between the source and the target. They are accomplice because they helped the data to transit. That's only commom sense ! /s

Just running network equipment doesn't make you aware of it's use though. Tor users know through high-profile cases that Tor is being used for drugs deals and other criminal activities - but they run the exit nodes in the face of this. I'm not saying the law is correct (nor wrong) just that the application appears to be valid. Yes, there are high-moral reasons to run an exit node too.

"its use". "It's" means only "it is" or maybe "it has".

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#69

Post by vixin »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #60
malka wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When someone is condamned for something online-related (piracy, CP, etc.), we should obviously arrest all the owners of routers between the source and the target. They are accomplice because they helped the data to transit. That's only commom sense ! /s

Just running network equipment doesn't make you aware of it's use though. Tor users know through high-profile cases that Tor is being used for drugs deals and other criminal activities - but they run the exit nodes in the face of this. I'm not saying the law is correct (nor wrong) just that the application appears to be valid. Yes, there are high-moral reasons to run an exit node too.

"its use". "It's" means only "it is" or maybe "it has".

Re: Tor exit node operator prosecuted in Austria

#70

Post by pritambaral »

peterjancelis wrote: post #63

It's too easy to scare people from hosting tor exit nodes right now. I think the way forward is to incorporate some use based digital currency payments to compensate exit node operators for their risk. Make it a business and let the market decide the insurance premium needed.

Who do you think can pay more? Dissident journalists or internet drug dealers?
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