Inside the Mirrortocracy • Hacker News Board

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#71

Post by facepalm » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 1:49 PM UTC

VexXtreme wrote: post #64

facepalm wrote: post #13

So what is a good/correct hiring criterion? I was under the impression that nobody really knows. And I am not convinced that it is a bad idea to look for "cultural fit". For example I don't dismiss anybody as a programmer who has never heard about Paul Graham or Joel Spolsky, but certainly consider it weird and it's probably at least a minus in my book.

> So what is a good/correct hiring criterion? I was under the impression that nobody really knows. Actually I can't believe you can say this with a straight face. It is well known what a good hiring criterion is (e.g. productive, smart, not an asshole, can work with different people etc). All these things can be sussed out during the interview process quite professionally without resorting to questioning people's mus…

"productive, smart, not an asshole, can work with different people etc"

People seem to struggle to determine those things during an interview, though. If you don't understand me, I can only diagnose a lack of curiosity on your part. Otherwise you would have read some of the countless articles on hiring issues by now.

" people who can't get along with anyone who is not exactly like them"

I never said anything like that. I just think it is a good idea to judge people by what you know. What else can you do? It's completely random to hire somebody you don't understand or where you don't know where they are coming from.

"And I for one don't really care about having dinners with my coworkers, going clubbing together and similar nonsense. You're paying me to do a job for you and I will deliver my end of the deal."

It's nice that you don't care about your coworkers as people (having dinner with them or becoming friends). I am sure there are loads of companies that are perfect for you, because they only require blue collar programming drones.

But why should what you prefer be good for every company? Why shouldn't a company be allowed to aim for co-workers who become friends? Why not let the market sort it out (maybe the drone companies will outperform the friend companies, maybe not).

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#72

Post by pron » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 1:49 PM UTC

sharpneli wrote: post #61

pron wrote: post #19

> Without a natural feedback loop, interviewing mostly runs on myth and survivor bias. It is a law of human nature that a chaotic environment breeds magical thinking and ingroup allegiance, and there are few business environments more chaotic than Silicon Valley, where startups succeed or fail seemingly at random. The noise calls for reason, and because there are no true known causes for success our mind demands some…

"Correlation doesn't equal causation" I've noticed that people tend to misinterpret this sentence. In a lot of discussions it shows that people think that there can be correlation while the things don't have _ANY_ relationship between eachother, as in the correlation would arise purely trough random chance. That is blatantly false. Correlation implies at very minimum a causal link trough a third effect. The tradition…

Correlation is a statistical term that means that two random variables exhibit "similar behavior" across the probability space. Causation is a philosophical concept taken as a scientific axiom. Correlation does not imply causation at all -- neither direct or indirect -- though it may increase the chances of logical consequence that is sometimes equated (albeit occasionally through confusion) with causality.

Now, it is true that perfect correlation (which is rarely shown; more often than not in the business world, only "half" of the correlation is shown -- e.g. all successful startups have ping pong tables -- which is as good as nothing at all) in the real world usually implies some hidden causal link, but that link is not what the investigator has in mind. Often, the causation is actually quite direct but flows in the opposite direction from the common interpretation.

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#73

Post by FLUX-YOU » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 1:49 PM UTC

danielweber wrote: post #44

austinz wrote: post #3

That linked 42Floors blog post is terribly self-unaware. > Most startups take the building of their culture very seriously, especially when the culture is still new and quite fragile. If your culture is so fucking fragile that a guy wearing a suit (as opposed to a T-shirt and jeans) poses an existential threat to it, you need to re-evaluate whether you are actually building a company 'culture', or just some random ag…

It's pretty sad how people become exactly that which they hate.

I really, really, really hate rich people.

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#74

Post by facepalm » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 1:51 PM UTC

danielweber wrote: post #52

facepalm wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn't there a basic curiosity in some people? I have a hard time imagining somebody who truly cares about programming to learn about Joel's blog and not devouring it (I mean the earlier days, when it was still about programming). I could let it pass if they never heard about Joel, but they know lots of other interesting stuff. Or anything else, really - it is the basic difference between somebody just doing their…

1. "I do/am X ." 2. Just-so story about how X is essential for good programmers (which, by definition, I am.) 3. "Therefore I interview for developers who do/are X ."

How do you propose to hire somebody you don't understand? It seems to make a lot more sense to judge people based on the things you know.

If you believe X is important for programming, why on earth would you hire somebody who doesn't like/know about X?

It's possible that you are mistaken about X being important. But then you are screwed anyway. But if you start hiring based on things you don't know, you are also screwed.

At the end of the day everything you do is based on your beliefs. Maybe you started an IT consulting company because you believe Rails is the best thing ever. Then why should you hire somebody who doesn't believe that? If you think about it, the whole premise of the article is completely ridiculous.

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#75

Post by watwut » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 1:52 PM UTC

facepalm wrote: post #47

watwut wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But isn't there a basic curiosity in some people?" Someone who does not read the same old blog as you is not curious? That does not make any sense. I checked out Joels blog now (after years) and there does seem to be anything exceptional or different then what is on gazillion other blogs. If anything, Java guy reading about Java could learn about map reduce, full text search, security, compilers, algorithms, sound p…

I'm willing to bet that you don't live up to your own standards of being friendly with people. But I think you don't even understand what I am trying to say. "I would try various topics until I find the one we can talk about." I am not talking about meeting once and making small talk. I am talking about meeting every day, for 10 years straight. Curiosity: if somebody can give me a good reason why they don't like Joel…

It sounds like your answer to question "Are you hiring programmer or drinking buddy?" is "I'm hiring a drink/lunch buddy".

If you still work together 10 years later, your topics will be much different then. Whatever you read now is irrelevant. However, with company hires being focused on dinners and lunches small talks, the company is not likely to stay together 10 years later on. Not unless huge changes in culture happen.

As for music taste and personality, I do not see much of reliable and relevant to employment. If they would act like jerks towards anybody who does not share their passion or would insist on playing it loud despise other people objections, yeah I would have the issue. Other then that, nope. As far as I'm concerned most people listen whatever was the thing where they grew up.

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#76

Post by facepalm » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 1:57 PM UTC

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #66

facepalm wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn't there a basic curiosity in some people? I have a hard time imagining somebody who truly cares about programming to learn about Joel's blog and not devouring it (I mean the earlier days, when it was still about programming). I could let it pass if they never heard about Joel, but they know lots of other interesting stuff. Or anything else, really - it is the basic difference between somebody just doing their…

>Why should it be good for me to work with somebody who only cares about Java? And what would you take about during lunch - Java development? Knowledge depth, for one. The time you spend reading about new trends and languages is time not spent getting deeper knowledge about the skills you already have. Maybe you spend just as much time as he does gaining knowledge depth in your chosen language and spend some of your…

"for no more work than it took to read a blog."

But it shows you are willing to read blogs to further your knowledge. Presumably even voluntarily. Would you really say that is just a weak signal, especially in a profession that changes as quickly as IT?

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#77

Post by facepalm » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 1:58 PM UTC

walterbell wrote: post #40

facepalm wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am asking you why you think it is important. I am not really interested in "beliefs". It seems curious that it is automatically assumed that diversity is beneficial. As I said, maybe there is a reason why your pals are your pals and you work better together with them than with strangers. I guess I believe that a company does not have a moral obligation to foster diversity and social mobility. It is possible that a…

Sounds a bit like NRx. Here's a Bell Labs story from Richard Hamming about office doors being open or closed. The metaphor is hopefully clear. From http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html : "Another trait, it took me a while to notice. I noticed the following facts about people who work with the door open or the door closed. I notice that if you have the door to your office closed, you get more wor…

This is something completely different.

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#78

Post by watwut » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 1:59 PM UTC

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #66

facepalm wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn't there a basic curiosity in some people? I have a hard time imagining somebody who truly cares about programming to learn about Joel's blog and not devouring it (I mean the earlier days, when it was still about programming). I could let it pass if they never heard about Joel, but they know lots of other interesting stuff. Or anything else, really - it is the basic difference between somebody just doing their…

>Why should it be good for me to work with somebody who only cares about Java? And what would you take about during lunch - Java development? Knowledge depth, for one. The time you spend reading about new trends and languages is time not spent getting deeper knowledge about the skills you already have. Maybe you spend just as much time as he does gaining knowledge depth in your chosen language and spend some of your…

@facepalm I would much rather hire someone who reads in-depts books that those shallow blogs. Too much time spend on blogs and discussion forums is not that great thing.

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#79

Post by facepalm » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 2:00 PM UTC

coriny wrote: post #68

facepalm wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am asking you why you think it is important. I am not really interested in "beliefs". It seems curious that it is automatically assumed that diversity is beneficial. As I said, maybe there is a reason why your pals are your pals and you work better together with them than with strangers. I guess I believe that a company does not have a moral obligation to foster diversity and social mobility. It is possible that a…

There's been quite a bit of research into group composition and dynamics and their effect on problem solving. In short, the main body of research seems to suggest that diverse groups show a higher group intelligence than homogeneous groups (have a search on google scholar). This is likely to do with a diverse group having a wider range of experiences, and more view points, to draw on in solving a problem. Ultimately,…

That's just a handwavy reply (look up the research). I know the kind of research, and it is very hard to separate the ideologically motivated one from the worthwhile ones.

"Just hire good professional people, surely?"

So why have any hiring process at all, if it doesn't matter who works for/with you?

Some people realize they spend most of their waking hours at work, so they want to get along with the people they work with.

Re: Inside the Mirrortocracy

#80

Post by opendais » Mon, Jun 23, 2014, 2:01 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #60

> “Well, I grabbed coffee with the founder, and I had dinner with the team last night, and then we went to a bar together.” I'm no teetotaler, but bars can be uncomfortable to downright hostile places for the majority of people (women + people who don't drink for religious or health reasons). It's absolutely inappropriate and unprofessional to incorporate one into an interview. This is typical "old boy's club" shit,…

Yep. I'd decline and not get the job. I know that already [hint: I don't drink].

It is quite amazing how many people are completely oblivious to their own biases.