Live data from Hacker News

Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

arstechnica.com

41–50 of 55 posts

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#41
post #12

I'm not sure what to say. Mostly I'm just frightened for the future. It's very disheartening to watch civil liberties be dismantled so rapidly. When you combine this with the secret transatlantic talks for the proliferation of extremely large multinational corporations and the rapid militarization of the police, it almost feels as if there might be a coup being slowly but silently executed right under our noses. And…

Probably not much will be done by the general public as long as the milk and honey keep flowing.....

This is the real trick for our leaders (or usurpers or whoever they are). Keeping a chicken in every pot and two cars in each garage.

They start failing at this and suddenly the citizenry might miraculously become concerned about "rights" and "liberty". And... I might point out, in spite of NSA, in spite of a possibly doctored political process, in spite of police departments with tanks... an unhappy and hungry citizenry, especially one that can still vote, has never been good for those in charge of society.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#42
post #32

Some of you will end up on juries. Just vote to acquit. Obviously you can't vote to acquit when evidence is withheld at trial... how would you know? So vote to acquit for all crimes. Period. The damage that one or two or even dozens of criminals will cause is much less than that caused by a government that believes itself righteous when it undermines fundamental human liberties.

Be careful to not commit perjury during jury selection. They will almost certainly ask you if you have any beliefs that would prevent you from ruling based solely on the law; they want to know if you know that you are allowed to rule however you wish, regardless of what the law states, and are willing to do so. So either lie, but know that you are lying and accept the risk, or tell them "yes" when they ask you that.

I define "belief" quite a bit differently than they do, but I'm also ignorant of the fact that we don't mean the same thing for that word. Therefor, I wouldn't be lying if I said "no".

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#43
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going to argue with you, but then I realized I agreed. It's now impossible to know whether the evidence presented to a jury was legally acquired, creating (in my mind) an automatic reasonable doubt.

I don't think it's quite that bad for a lot of the more serious crimes, specifically the "real" crimes of violence. Unless it's a homicide, there's likely to be a victim eyewitness. Or surveillance cameras in areas where the accused has no presumption of privacy. There's also forensic evidence, which in the case of DNA is sufficiently strong in my judgement. Unless you're inclined to dismiss the latter because you've…

This isn't just about convicting the guilty. If only it were, we'd have the police tossing homes like jail cells once a week, trying to ferret out the criminals.

Even criminals have rights, and they have the right to hear all evidence against them. Only then can they possibly dispute it.

Jurors who rightly believe that not all evidence was presented or at least scrutinized by the defense have a moral obligation to acquit. If this happened enough, our government would soon be forced to act more responsibly.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#44
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keyword: transfer I'm disagreeing about their being a transfer of power at this stage. There is no power transfer. The basic power blocks already existed in their current form, were the primary source of money for politicians, etc. since the 1980s [at the latest]. Transfer implies they are taking power away from people. They aren't. They are merely utilizing the power they already have to tighten their hold on it to…

" The basic power blocks already existed in their current form, were the primary source of money for politicians, etc. since the 1980s [at the latest]. " I didn't notice any changes in this after the post-Watergate "reforms", which happened not long after I became politically aware. Globalization is ancient in American economic history, was very big in the 19th Century, and e.g. for the world, it didn't return to pre…

> I didn't notice any changes in this after the post-Watergate "reforms", which happened not long after I became politically aware.

That is why I added the 'at the latest' bit. I didn't want people to get hung up arguing over a date.

> And I agree, this is a consolidation period. But I believe it's build on a foundation of sand, e.g. there is not an infinite hunger for US government debt at negative real interest rates, we're just the "least worst" place to put your money for the foreseeable future.

It is not purely the US government doing consolidating. The trade treaties the US negotiates are really bought and paid for by US multinationals.

China is also consolidating power as it slowly opens itself to the world market and seeks to displace the US's hegemony.

I'm sure you can even argue the EU "One Market" is the same type of political-economic consolidation.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#45
post #39
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't jibe at all with how "average Americans" have been arming themselves with rifles of military utility at historically unprecedented rates (some details on request, drilling down to that level would be a lot of work; it started post-9/11, I believe because the government made it clear we were on our own). Concealed carry is also very big, although a lot of that seems to be driven by an aging population, pl…

Do you have a source for the increase of "rifles of military utility?" Either way, it lines up perfectly with what I just said. Those buying these rifles are a vocal minority. Most Americans see them as a problem and want stricter gun laws, or safety switches on guns. They fail to realize that this group's plight parallels with the plights of the groups they do stand behind.

Yeah, data from Pitman-Robertson tax collection on new ones (and ammo as well), and imports of surplus rifles are regulated and reported by the BATF. And the prices of the latter, as each country's stock of "turn of the century battle rifles", that is, bolt action rifles generally designed around 1900, has been exhausted.

Russian Mosin Nagants are the very last set. They're no longer dirt cheap, and looking at gunbroker.com right now, they might be starting to move from the general price of $150. Quality time spent at the website of the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF, they're the true gun industry lobby, http://www.nssf.org/) will get you the details, plus NICS instant background check numbers for purchases of all guns from gun shops, which have been amazing and further reinforce my point (and are a lot simpler, a single monthly figure).

Ammo is also still in iffy supply for rifles and handguns.

Seriously, I've watched this market since the early '70s, and know at least the general history in the 20th Century, and nothing like it has ever happened before.

"Most Americans see them as a problem"

Do you have a reliable source for that? As opposed to generic polls that say "Crime is bad, should there be stricter laws?" when even many gun owners don't know the current purchasing strictures, vs. "This Colorado law will make it illegal for you to leave your guns with a friend before your house is flooded" (the latter is not a hypothetical, BTW, but a recent event), "Do you approve of that?"

What I'm referencing above is very hard info, for new and imported guns with a granularity of 1 (every single one is reported), revealed preferences if you like.

The very self-evident political power of gun owners suggest we're something more than what you associate with the term "vocal minority".

"safety switches on guns"

What do you mean by that? With the exception of some single shot target rifles, and hard trigger pull self-defense oriented double action, or loathsome striker fired handguns like the ubiquitous Glock, which the gun grabbers are not demanding get manual safeties, I'm not aware of any that don't have a safety that prevents firing when the trigger is pulled.

ADDED: In your OP you said "*The average American has almost assumed the government to be perfect except for the few parts it dislikes..." and expounded on that thesis. I think what I'm claiming strongly cuts against that, however that's based on my belief that more than half of the nation's households have guns vs. what I think you're implying, so I think our models of "the average American" are different.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#46
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be careful to not commit perjury during jury selection. They will almost certainly ask you if you have any beliefs that would prevent you from ruling based solely on the law; they want to know if you know that you are allowed to rule however you wish, regardless of what the law states, and are willing to do so. So either lie, but know that you are lying and accept the risk, or tell them "yes" when they ask you that.

I define "belief" quite a bit differently than they do, but I'm also ignorant of the fact that we don't mean the same thing for that word. Therefor, I wouldn't be lying if I said "no".

Sounds good to me. Personally, I'd risk it as well, since negative outcomes for me are unlikely.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#47
post #38
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's almost as if America has become a culture that if something doesn't directly impact the individual they don't care about it, no matter how unjust. We see this with the "well, I have nothing to hide" mentality as well as the "maybe they shouldn't have broken the law in the first place" mentality. The average American has almost assumed the government to be perfect except for the few parts it dislikes and doesn't…

That doesn't jibe at all with how "average Americans" have been arming themselves with rifles of military utility at historically unprecedented rates (some details on request, drilling down to that level would be a lot of work; it started post-9/11, I believe because the government made it clear we were on our own). Concealed carry is also very big, although a lot of that seems to be driven by an aging population, pl…

NCIS checks are up over 50% since 2002.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/frankminiter/2012/08/23/what-the...

So overall purchases are up.

However, the number of households with guns is down: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/us/rate-of-gun-ownership-i...

So I think you is mistaken in that gun ownership is increasing as a share of the population in a major way.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#48
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't jibe at all with how "average Americans" have been arming themselves with rifles of military utility at historically unprecedented rates (some details on request, drilling down to that level would be a lot of work; it started post-9/11, I believe because the government made it clear we were on our own). Concealed carry is also very big, although a lot of that seems to be driven by an aging population, pl…

NCIS checks are up over 50% since 2002. http://www.forbes.com/sites/frankminiter/2012/08/23/what-the... So overall purchases are up. However, the number of households with guns is down: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/us/rate-of-gun-ownership-i... So I think you is mistaken in that gun ownership is increasing as a share of the population in a major way.

Come on; while the NYT is now paywalled for me as of today (I guess I used up my monthly quota), the date of the article shows it's during the Sandy Hook furor, when after a decade's pause the Democrats at the national level returned to gun-grabbing. Self-reported gun ownership to a nosy stranger calling you on the phone has always tracked the political situation.

Doing the math is a lot more productive; I don't know about the above (since I can't read it!), but when I ran the numbers on another gun-grabber claim of the sort at around the same time, it implied we gun owners have now, on average, accumulated gun collections worth more than $100,000. That obviously doesn't pass the smell test, especially N years into the Great Recession.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#49
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NCIS checks are up over 50% since 2002. http://www.forbes.com/sites/frankminiter/2012/08/23/what-the... So overall purchases are up. However, the number of households with guns is down: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/us/rate-of-gun-ownership-i... So I think you is mistaken in that gun ownership is increasing as a share of the population in a major way.

Come on; while the NYT is now paywalled for me as of today (I guess I used up my monthly quota), the date of the article shows it's during the Sandy Hook furor, when after a decade's pause the Democrats at the national level returned to gun-grabbing. Self-reported gun ownership to a nosy stranger calling you on the phone has always tracked the political situation. Doing the math is a lot more productive; I don't know…

It was a discussion of the long term trend, not specific to that instance.

So you are saying more people lie about owning a gun to a nosy stranger than they did over the past 40 years?

It also isn't a democrat or republican issue. The growth in gun purchases began in 2002.

Since it won't let me reply yet:

"But by the mid-2000s, the federal government stopped asking the questions, leaving researchers to rely on much smaller surveys, like the General Social Survey, which is conducted by NORC, a research center at the University of Chicago.

Measuring the level of gun ownership can be a vexing problem, with various recent national polls reporting rates between 35 percent and 52 percent. Responses can vary because the survey designs and the wording of questions differ.

But researchers say the survey done by the center at the University of Chicago is crucial because it has consistently tracked gun ownership since 1973, asking if respondents “happen to have in your home (or garage) any guns or revolvers.”

The center’s 2012 survey, conducted mostly in person but also by phone, involved interviews with about 2,000 people from March to September and had a margin of sampling error of plus or minus three percentage points.

Gallup, which asks a similar question but has a different survey design, shows a higher ownership rate and a more moderate decrease. No national survey tracks the number of guns within households."

Key flaw here is the fact it doesn't track nationwide [and there isn't one, even by the NRA and other gun rights groups].

The article itself shows a decline from about 50% to about 30%. I don't think reading the rest would really help you pick apart what I've said.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#50
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on; while the NYT is now paywalled for me as of today (I guess I used up my monthly quota), the date of the article shows it's during the Sandy Hook furor, when after a decade's pause the Democrats at the national level returned to gun-grabbing. Self-reported gun ownership to a nosy stranger calling you on the phone has always tracked the political situation. Doing the math is a lot more productive; I don't know…

It was a discussion of the long term trend, not specific to that instance. So you are saying more people lie about owning a gun to a nosy stranger than they did over the past 40 years? It also isn't a democrat or republican issue. The growth in gun purchases began in 2002. Since it won't let me reply yet: "But by the mid-2000s, the federal government stopped asking the questions, leaving researchers to rely on much s…

"It was a discussion of the long term trend, not specific to that instance."

Well, point me at a source I can read, or quote the relevant parts, or email me them (see my profile). Or just tell me which polling outfit did it, e.g. Gallup puts this sort of stuff on-line and without a paywall.

"So you are saying more people lie about owning a gun to a nosy stranger than they did over the past 40 years?"

See above WRT my not being able to know what you're asking, but I wouldn't be at all surprised by such a trend, though I'd really like to look at the endpoints; also note phone surveys have had an increasing problem with just getting people to even answer questions of any sort. The errors in all too many election based surveys ought to give you pause in taking this claim so far.

And, as I said, the math doesn't work. That should be enough to falsify this claim.

"It also isn't a democrat or republican issue. The growth in gun purchases began in 2002."

Which just might be why I said in my original posting above that "it started post-9/11, I believe because the government made it clear we were on our own".

Post reply on HN