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Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

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Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#31

Post by mentat »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #10

The way stingray works is reportedly by pretending to be a cell phone tower. It seems to me this can be used by a smartphone app to monitor for stingray usage. If the phone knows that it's not moving very fast (Androids certainly know this, I'm sure iPhones can as well), and a new cell phone tower appears suddenly, it seems to me that would be a good indicator somebody is stingraying nearby. (this isn't bulletproof,…

WiGLE.net has been collecting cell phone tower location data for a while. I wonder (a) if there are any Stingrays captured there and (b) if this with more data would be capable of building immediate alerting to Stringray use. I tend to think it could.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#32

Post by Crito »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #19

Some of you will end up on juries. Just vote to acquit. Obviously you can't vote to acquit when evidence is withheld at trial... how would you know? So vote to acquit for all crimes. Period. The damage that one or two or even dozens of criminals will cause is much less than that caused by a government that believes itself righteous when it undermines fundamental human liberties.

Be careful to not commit perjury during jury selection. They will almost certainly ask you if you have any beliefs that would prevent you from ruling based solely on the law; they want to know if you know that you are allowed to rule however you wish, regardless of what the law states, and are willing to do so.

So either lie, but know that you are lying and accept the risk, or tell them "yes" when they ask you that.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#33

Post by ihsw »

wavefunction wrote: post #30
ihsw wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be facetious, just because the Constitution says "don't do X" doesn't mean X is worthless. There is value to freedom of association, but it shouldn't be assumed that it's valuable because the Constitution says so. The same logic can be applied reversely -- there is value to curtailing freedom of association. "It's only illegal if you get caught" seems to be the mantra of the DoJ in this case -- stonewall and di…

This country was founded on open courts and due process, neither of which this "useful tool" falls under. My point is you can't "save the village by destroying it," not that things derive their value from their legal status. The wonderful thing we mostly have going in the USA is destroyed by these individuals who pretend to be protecting it. The ends do not justify the means.

I'm not at all saying the ends justify the means, just that their argument that these tools are useful is valid, and we will need to help them realize that they are damaging us far more than they are helping us.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#34

Post by bediger4000 »

ihsw wrote: post #33
wavefunction wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This country was founded on open courts and due process, neither of which this "useful tool" falls under. My point is you can't "save the village by destroying it," not that things derive their value from their legal status. The wonderful thing we mostly have going in the USA is destroyed by these individuals who pretend to be protecting it. The ends do not justify the means.

I'm not at all saying the ends justify the means, just that their argument that these tools are useful is valid, and we will need to help them realize that they are damaging us far more than they are helping us.

So far, nobody has really said what value comes from the (presumably illegal, and hence cover-up required) use of IMSI catchers. We've all speculated ("easier to find criminals!", "cheaper to find criminals!"), but what, exactly, is the value to law enforcement? The citizens of the USA are supposed to decide (through their representatives, of course) about what to do and how to do it. Perhaps the tools aren't useful, perhaps they are. Without some knowledge we don't know. The feds need to open up about IMSI catchers.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#35

Post by codyb »

opendais wrote: post #29
codyb wrote: post #12

I'm not sure what to say. Mostly I'm just frightened for the future. It's very disheartening to watch civil liberties be dismantled so rapidly. When you combine this with the secret transatlantic talks for the proliferation of extremely large multinational corporations and the rapid militarization of the police, it almost feels as if there might be a coup being slowly but silently executed right under our noses. And…

I don't think this is really a coup of some kind. It is more a consolidation of power by the oligarchy into a handful of politically powerful, wealthy groups. I think the reason this is working so well is the marketing. Almost no one goes out and admits that the domestic usage is partially to catch people violating "social norm" laws [marijuana bad; alcohol good], and keep an eye on things that are highly political […

I think thats semantics. What is a coup but a transfer and consolidation of power?

The only difference I can think of is the time span. This seems to be a long haul kind of game as opposed to the traditional military coups of past (and present).

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#36

Post by opendais »

codyb wrote: post #35
opendais wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is really a coup of some kind. It is more a consolidation of power by the oligarchy into a handful of politically powerful, wealthy groups. I think the reason this is working so well is the marketing. Almost no one goes out and admits that the domestic usage is partially to catch people violating "social norm" laws [marijuana bad; alcohol good], and keep an eye on things that are highly political […

I think thats semantics. What is a coup but a transfer and consolidation of power? The only difference I can think of is the time span. This seems to be a long haul kind of game as opposed to the traditional military coups of past (and present).

Keyword: transfer

I'm disagreeing about their being a transfer of power at this stage. There is no power transfer.

The basic power blocks already existed in their current form, were the primary source of money for politicians, etc. since the 1980s [at the latest].

Transfer implies they are taking power away from people. They aren't. They are merely utilizing the power they already have to tighten their hold on it to make it harder to transfer power away from them.

I don't think this is even truly a new phenomena. It is just with Globalization, Internet, etc. the power blocks are so large that they span the entire world rather than just a single country.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#37

Post by mxiia »

opendais wrote: post #29
codyb wrote: post #12

I'm not sure what to say. Mostly I'm just frightened for the future. It's very disheartening to watch civil liberties be dismantled so rapidly. When you combine this with the secret transatlantic talks for the proliferation of extremely large multinational corporations and the rapid militarization of the police, it almost feels as if there might be a coup being slowly but silently executed right under our noses. And…

I don't think this is really a coup of some kind. It is more a consolidation of power by the oligarchy into a handful of politically powerful, wealthy groups. I think the reason this is working so well is the marketing. Almost no one goes out and admits that the domestic usage is partially to catch people violating "social norm" laws [marijuana bad; alcohol good], and keep an eye on things that are highly political […

It's almost as if America has become a culture that if something doesn't directly impact the individual they don't care about it, no matter how unjust. We see this with the "well, I have nothing to hide" mentality as well as the "maybe they shouldn't have broken the law in the first place" mentality.

The average American has almost assumed the government to be perfect except for the few parts it dislikes and doesn't want to look more deeply to realize that other people have pointed out just as valid criticisms of other parts of the government.

What we end up with is a majority of people (say 80%) that all dislike a different small part of the government and think the rest of this group is complaining for no reason or should just accept the way things are.

We see this with things like teachers not liking the state-run testing but refusing to acknowledge that the state's interference with drug policies is having an equal if not greater impact.

No one is satisfied but everyone has a different problem.

We've become closed minded in being open minded. Once we decide we're open minded to one thing we feel that's enough and turn a blind eye to the rest.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#38

Post by hga »

mxiia wrote: post #37
opendais wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is really a coup of some kind. It is more a consolidation of power by the oligarchy into a handful of politically powerful, wealthy groups. I think the reason this is working so well is the marketing. Almost no one goes out and admits that the domestic usage is partially to catch people violating "social norm" laws [marijuana bad; alcohol good], and keep an eye on things that are highly political […

It's almost as if America has become a culture that if something doesn't directly impact the individual they don't care about it, no matter how unjust. We see this with the "well, I have nothing to hide" mentality as well as the "maybe they shouldn't have broken the law in the first place" mentality. The average American has almost assumed the government to be perfect except for the few parts it dislikes and doesn't…

That doesn't jibe at all with how "average Americans" have been arming themselves with rifles of military utility at historically unprecedented rates (some details on request, drilling down to that level would be a lot of work; it started post-9/11, I believe because the government made it clear we were on our own).

Concealed carry is also very big, although a lot of that seems to be driven by an aging population, plus I think the media's perfervid portrayal of crime while actual rates are going down in most places.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#39

Post by mxiia »

hga wrote: post #38
mxiia wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's almost as if America has become a culture that if something doesn't directly impact the individual they don't care about it, no matter how unjust. We see this with the "well, I have nothing to hide" mentality as well as the "maybe they shouldn't have broken the law in the first place" mentality. The average American has almost assumed the government to be perfect except for the few parts it dislikes and doesn't…

That doesn't jibe at all with how "average Americans" have been arming themselves with rifles of military utility at historically unprecedented rates (some details on request, drilling down to that level would be a lot of work; it started post-9/11, I believe because the government made it clear we were on our own). Concealed carry is also very big, although a lot of that seems to be driven by an aging population, pl…

Do you have a source for the increase of "rifles of military utility?"

Either way, it lines up perfectly with what I just said. Those buying these rifles are a vocal minority. Most Americans see them as a problem and want stricter gun laws, or safety switches on guns. They fail to realize that this group's plight parallels with the plights of the groups they do stand behind.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#40

Post by hga »

opendais wrote: post #36
codyb wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think thats semantics. What is a coup but a transfer and consolidation of power? The only difference I can think of is the time span. This seems to be a long haul kind of game as opposed to the traditional military coups of past (and present).

Keyword: transfer I'm disagreeing about their being a transfer of power at this stage. There is no power transfer. The basic power blocks already existed in their current form, were the primary source of money for politicians, etc. since the 1980s [at the latest]. Transfer implies they are taking power away from people. They aren't. They are merely utilizing the power they already have to tighten their hold on it to…

"The basic power blocks already existed in their current form, were the primary source of money for politicians, etc. since the 1980s [at the latest]."

I didn't notice any changes in this after the post-Watergate "reforms", which happened not long after I became politically aware.

Globalization is ancient in American economic history, was very big in the 19th Century, and e.g. for the world, it didn't return to pre-WWI levels until a frighteningly later time, I can't remember when, but within my lifetime (which I suppose I should point out started when Eisenhower was president (barely)).

And I agree, this is a consolidation period. But I believe it's build on a foundation of sand, e.g. there is not an infinite hunger for US government debt at negative real interest rates, we're just the "least worst" place to put your money for the foreseeable future.

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