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Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

arstechnica.com

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Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#21

Post by bediger4000 »

click170 wrote: post #11
talmand wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A tool so valuable that both local police, plus the Federal government, will break numerous laws and trample on the rights of citizens to protect the secret of its existence. An existence so secret that the only people to understand the possibility of its existence is anyone who's been paying attention the last decade. So secret in fact, that the Wikipedia page is only about three years old. I don't care how valuable…

First, I agree with everything you said whole-heartedly. I don't believe that most cops out there actually have an intent to do evil, or to trample your rights though. They deal with criminal after criminal after criminal, I think their perspective is more likely that these tools and methods help solve cases quicker and there-for save taxpayer money and that us civilians aren't able to see that perspective. I think t…

Ignorance of the law (and Constitution, in DoJ and DA's cases) is no excuse. I think you're cutting them undeserved slack. If any company in the USA used the "it saves money!" excuse to do illegal things, we'd show them no mercy.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#22

Post by sparkman55 »

codyb wrote: post #12

I'm not sure what to say. Mostly I'm just frightened for the future. It's very disheartening to watch civil liberties be dismantled so rapidly. When you combine this with the secret transatlantic talks for the proliferation of extremely large multinational corporations and the rapid militarization of the police, it almost feels as if there might be a coup being slowly but silently executed right under our noses. And…

It's very easy to join or donate to the ACLU ($35), and it's (marginally) better than the "let's see what happens" attitude most of us have on this matter.

https://www.aclunc.org/donate/become-a-member

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#23

Post by mxiia »

sparkman55 wrote: post #22
codyb wrote: post #12

I'm not sure what to say. Mostly I'm just frightened for the future. It's very disheartening to watch civil liberties be dismantled so rapidly. When you combine this with the secret transatlantic talks for the proliferation of extremely large multinational corporations and the rapid militarization of the police, it almost feels as if there might be a coup being slowly but silently executed right under our noses. And…

It's very easy to join or donate to the ACLU ($35), and it's (marginally) better than the "let's see what happens" attitude most of us have on this matter. https://www.aclunc.org/donate/become-a-member

You linked to the Northern California branch. It'd be better to donate to the main entity.

https://www.aclu.org/donate/join-renew-give?ms=web_footer_do...

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#24

Post by charonn0 »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #19

Some of you will end up on juries. Just vote to acquit. Obviously you can't vote to acquit when evidence is withheld at trial... how would you know? So vote to acquit for all crimes. Period. The damage that one or two or even dozens of criminals will cause is much less than that caused by a government that believes itself righteous when it undermines fundamental human liberties.

I was going to argue with you, but then I realized I agreed. It's now impossible to know whether the evidence presented to a jury was legally acquired, creating (in my mind) an automatic reasonable doubt.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#25

Post by ihsw »

wavefunction wrote: post #15
droopyEyelids wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3. This is a valuable tool for police, and the police worry about criminal countermeasures once it becomes public. My money is on a combination of 2 & 3.

It has no value if they have to ignore the Constitution and creep around like criminals themselves.

Don't be facetious, just because the Constitution says "don't do X" doesn't mean X is worthless.

There is value to freedom of association, but it shouldn't be assumed that it's valuable because the Constitution says so. The same logic can be applied reversely -- there is value to curtailing freedom of association.

"It's only illegal if you get caught" seems to be the mantra of the DoJ in this case -- stonewall and distract rather than address the legality of illegal activities.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#26

Post by ihsw »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #10

The way stingray works is reportedly by pretending to be a cell phone tower. It seems to me this can be used by a smartphone app to monitor for stingray usage. If the phone knows that it's not moving very fast (Androids certainly know this, I'm sure iPhones can as well), and a new cell phone tower appears suddenly, it seems to me that would be a good indicator somebody is stingraying nearby. (this isn't bulletproof,…

There are already mobile cell towers in use by AT&T et al, they're used for large events (eg: sporting events).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_on_wheels

Differentiating between them and stingrays would be difficult, especially since the baseband chips in your phone are proprietary technology that can lie to the host OS (iOS, Android, etc).

However there are already projects for real-time mapping of cell towers on a national basis, which is a good start, but they will always be a step behind the US Government (for example).

Additional reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_cell_sites

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#27

Post by hga »

charonn0 wrote: post #24
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #19

Some of you will end up on juries. Just vote to acquit. Obviously you can't vote to acquit when evidence is withheld at trial... how would you know? So vote to acquit for all crimes. Period. The damage that one or two or even dozens of criminals will cause is much less than that caused by a government that believes itself righteous when it undermines fundamental human liberties.

I was going to argue with you, but then I realized I agreed. It's now impossible to know whether the evidence presented to a jury was legally acquired, creating (in my mind) an automatic reasonable doubt.

I don't think it's quite that bad for a lot of the more serious crimes, specifically the "real" crimes of violence.

Unless it's a homicide, there's likely to be a victim eyewitness. Or surveillance cameras in areas where the accused has no presumption of privacy. There's also forensic evidence, which in the case of DNA is sufficiently strong in my judgement.

Unless you're inclined to dismiss the latter because you've decided the system is so corrupt even that is in doubt. But I'd hope "enough" crimes of violence can be judged safely that the deterrent effect of convictions and punishment remains.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#28

Post by jrochkind1 »

A couple months pre-snowden, I was robbed of a cell phone, and reported it to the cops, and had an interview with a detective.

Who told me I should not call and cancel the cell phone yet, because 'they had ways' of tracking it's use, wink wink, but we can't really tell you about the details, wink wink.

Honestly, if he had left out the smirking and "we can't tell you about the details", it probably wouldn't have occured to me that there was anything odd here, sure, the cops can issue a warrant or some such paperwork and get records from the phone company probably, who knows.

But with all the winking and smirking, I thought, geez, what the fuck, he says it's not supposed to be public information but he's telling me about it... should I, like, get in touch with the ACLU about this or something? I never did though.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#29

Post by opendais »

codyb wrote: post #12

I'm not sure what to say. Mostly I'm just frightened for the future. It's very disheartening to watch civil liberties be dismantled so rapidly. When you combine this with the secret transatlantic talks for the proliferation of extremely large multinational corporations and the rapid militarization of the police, it almost feels as if there might be a coup being slowly but silently executed right under our noses. And…

I don't think this is really a coup of some kind. It is more a consolidation of power by the oligarchy into a handful of politically powerful, wealthy groups.

I think the reason this is working so well is the marketing.

Almost no one goes out and admits that the domestic usage is partially to catch people violating "social norm" laws [marijuana bad; alcohol good], and keep an eye on things that are highly political [e.g. Occupy Wall Street].

I think the average person assumes "because MURICA" that doesn't happen.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#30

Post by wavefunction »

ihsw wrote: post #25
wavefunction wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has no value if they have to ignore the Constitution and creep around like criminals themselves.

Don't be facetious, just because the Constitution says "don't do X" doesn't mean X is worthless. There is value to freedom of association, but it shouldn't be assumed that it's valuable because the Constitution says so. The same logic can be applied reversely -- there is value to curtailing freedom of association. "It's only illegal if you get caught" seems to be the mantra of the DoJ in this case -- stonewall and di…

This country was founded on open courts and due process, neither of which this "useful tool" falls under. My point is you can't "save the village by destroying it," not that things derive their value from their legal status.

The wonderful thing we mostly have going in the USA is destroyed by these individuals who pretend to be protecting it. The ends do not justify the means.

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