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Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

arstechnica.com

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Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#11

Post by click170 »

talmand wrote: post #8
droopyEyelids wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3. This is a valuable tool for police, and the police worry about criminal countermeasures once it becomes public. My money is on a combination of 2 & 3.

A tool so valuable that both local police, plus the Federal government, will break numerous laws and trample on the rights of citizens to protect the secret of its existence. An existence so secret that the only people to understand the possibility of its existence is anyone who's been paying attention the last decade. So secret in fact, that the Wikipedia page is only about three years old. I don't care how valuable…

First, I agree with everything you said whole-heartedly.

I don't believe that most cops out there actually have an intent to do evil, or to trample your rights though. They deal with criminal after criminal after criminal, I think their perspective is more likely that these tools and methods help solve cases quicker and there-for save taxpayer money and that us civilians aren't able to see that perspective.

I think that they aren't aware of the long term implications of what they're doing and that they should stop, but also that it's important not to think of them as evil if you want to have a dialogue with them about change.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#12

Post by codyb »

I'm not sure what to say. Mostly I'm just frightened for the future. It's very disheartening to watch civil liberties be dismantled so rapidly.

When you combine this with the secret transatlantic talks for the proliferation of extremely large multinational corporations and the rapid militarization of the police, it almost feels as if there might be a coup being slowly but silently executed right under our noses.

And no one cares. I did my first stand up set and had a joke about going to an ACLU meeting, and no one even knows what the ACLU is.

As scary as it, I certainly understand, that it is not as bad here as many places, but that doesn't mean I can't be concerned with the recent developments.

I just hope the American spirit will shine through one day and turn all of this around. The house passing to defund back door NSA research is heartening at least. Lets see what happens in the Senate.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#13

Post by tbyehl »

talmand wrote: post #9
vaadu wrote: post #5

How is this not a form of perjury? How does this not get every defendant a new trial? How many law suits will come of this for violations of people's constitutional rights? This crap should result in RICO charges and jail time for all parties that knew of this coverup and didn't try to stop it.

I'm not sure if it would be considered perjury, but I would imagine it easily falls under withholding evidence from the defendant, of which is entitled to such information for their defense. But I doubt there would be any prosecutions on this because the people to prosecute such things are the the people who benefit from the technology.

Is it evidence? Sounds like they're using it to locate people who are already wanted by law enforcement, not to gather evidence of a crime. What's the recourse there?

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#14

Post by nickff »

codyb wrote: post #12

I'm not sure what to say. Mostly I'm just frightened for the future. It's very disheartening to watch civil liberties be dismantled so rapidly. When you combine this with the secret transatlantic talks for the proliferation of extremely large multinational corporations and the rapid militarization of the police, it almost feels as if there might be a coup being slowly but silently executed right under our noses. And…

The corporations are not the problem here, it would be much simpler if they were. Elected and appointed government officials seem to have a strong desire to create their vision of a pleasant and orderly society, whatever the costs. These people generally appear to believe that so long as 'enlightened' people (such as themselves) are in charge, nothing bad can result.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#15

Post by wavefunction »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #7
bediger4000 wrote: post #6

It appears that there's more going on beneath the surface than we knew about. First, police departments sign NDAs so threatening that they don't want to reveal the use of stringrays. Next, US Marshalls seize Florida records of the use of stingrays. What does this pervasive concealment of the use of IMSI catchers/stingrays mean? I can think of two things: 1. IMSI catchers are used constantly, without warrant and maybe…

3. This is a valuable tool for police, and the police worry about criminal countermeasures once it becomes public. My money is on a combination of 2 & 3.

It has no value if they have to ignore the Constitution and creep around like criminals themselves.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#16

Post by revelation »

vaadu wrote: post #5

How is this not a form of perjury? How does this not get every defendant a new trial? How many law suits will come of this for violations of people's constitutional rights? This crap should result in RICO charges and jail time for all parties that knew of this coverup and didn't try to stop it.

In "The Wire", when police used a Stingray (they already called it that in 2002!) without a warrant, they were banished to the attic.

In reality, the federal government comes in and helps them cover up. Real life beats fiction. Even the power-driven characters in that satire knew the limits, and here is the real government one-upping them.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#18

Post by themartorana »

nickff wrote: post #14
codyb wrote: post #12

I'm not sure what to say. Mostly I'm just frightened for the future. It's very disheartening to watch civil liberties be dismantled so rapidly. When you combine this with the secret transatlantic talks for the proliferation of extremely large multinational corporations and the rapid militarization of the police, it almost feels as if there might be a coup being slowly but silently executed right under our noses. And…

The corporations are not the problem here, it would be much simpler if they were. Elected and appointed government officials seem to have a strong desire to create their vision of a pleasant and orderly society, whatever the costs. These people generally appear to believe that so long as 'enlightened' people (such as themselves) are in charge, nothing bad can result.

I think it's quite interesting that - perhaps to my tinfoil-hat side - we're ending up somewhere between Orwell and Huxley.

- Orwell feared the truth would be actively concealed. Check.

- Huxley feared distractions would be so great that no one (or very few people) would care to seek the truth. Check.

- Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Check.

- Huxley feared we would become obsessed with consumerism and preoccupied with distraction. Check.

- Orwell assumed we would be controlled by inflicting pain. Check (foreign policy).

- Huxley assumed we would be controlled by inflicting pleasure. Check (domestic news cycle, reality TV, lack of education.)

Both had valid points and we're seeing both approaches being used. So where we end up, I have no idea... where we are isn't great.

Talking points from this great comic strip: "Amusing Ourselves to Death" by Stuart McMillen, from 2009: http://flycl.ps/SXHdFP

Edit: formatting.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#19

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

Some of you will end up on juries. Just vote to acquit. Obviously you can't vote to acquit when evidence is withheld at trial... how would you know?

So vote to acquit for all crimes. Period. The damage that one or two or even dozens of criminals will cause is much less than that caused by a government that believes itself righteous when it undermines fundamental human liberties.

Re: Cops hid use of phone tracking tech in court documents at feds’ request

#20

Post by nkurz »

talmand wrote: post #9
vaadu wrote: post #5

How is this not a form of perjury? How does this not get every defendant a new trial? How many law suits will come of this for violations of people's constitutional rights? This crap should result in RICO charges and jail time for all parties that knew of this coverup and didn't try to stop it.

I'm not sure if it would be considered perjury, but I would imagine it easily falls under withholding evidence from the defendant, of which is entitled to such information for their defense. But I doubt there would be any prosecutions on this because the people to prosecute such things are the the people who benefit from the technology.

It's perjury if the term "confidential source" legally implies it was information conveyed by a human informant instead of gathered by electronic surveillance. The definitions I can find online say that "confidential source" is synonymous with "human informant" and must be a person. While this might be a "legal person" which includes a corporation, it would be a stretch to call a Stringray a person.

In my mind, they are simply lying about an illegal wiretap, and "this has not been challenged" only because the lie was taken as truth. But I'd guess the exact phrase was well-crafted by a lawyer who thought this alternate "plain English" interpretation would work as a defense. I'm doubtful a judge would view this charitably, but as you say, a prosecution where we find this out seems unlikely.

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