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For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

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131–140 of 424 posts

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't downvote, but I have to wonder what you're threshhold for not being a scam is? What companies will have to accept it, and how long will it have to be around? I'm pretty amazed that people still think it's a scam when huge companies with massive legal departments are accepting it. That's some pretty extreme skepticism. BTW, there are plenty of easy, legitimate ways to short Bitcoin, but given your extraordina…

Huge companies with massive legal departments don't accept bitcoin. They contract with smaller VC-funded startups to accept it and assume the risk and pay the large retailer in cash at sale time. The large retailers neither accept nor hold bitcoin directly, nor should they (as a merchant, you don't want to be holding something that loses 10% of its value during your business hours as bitcoin did today). The large ret…

Yeah and the internet was just a temporary trend.

People always overestimate the short term consequences and underestimate the long term consequences of such technologies.

Currency is only one way to express the protocol.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#132
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoins have value because they let you buy things.

You'd still be able to buy things if the exchange rate was 1 cent. Where's the rest of the value coming from?

They are a unit of exchange that freely floats based on the demand for that unit of exchange.

There is an eventual fixed supply of coins (21 million), with currently ~13 million in circulation (http://blockexplorer.com/q/totalbc). Given that the 13 million isn't increasing at any meaningful rate as it relates to the money supply, we can almost consider the supply fixed (at least on any short term perspective).

With this fixed supply, if more people become interested in using bitcoin as a unit of exchange and buy it in order to use it, then they will increase the demand and thus the price. If they used it to transfer money back home (i.e. remittances), and their family their exited the position back into cash, then the demand would be neutral. In reality, their is some cost of carry where by holding it for a period, you still increase the demand.

That would an explanation for the price were it governed by an actual underlying value.

In reality, the price is mainly governed by speculators hoping that it will be used by people as a unit of exchange eventually and thus the speculators are buying and holding coins.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there are certainly wanton abuses of civil forfeiture statutes, linked to even in this comment thread, applying them here is a no-brainer. Silk Road was very clearly a marketplace for illegal drugs, and the brokerage fee that DPR collected (whoever he or she is) is clearly illegal. Again, there are obviously situations where civil forfeiture is improperly utilized. This is not one of them, in my opinion.

What about due process?

> What about due process?

The process here was that government announced forfeiture action, people were given a chance to claim a property interest and fight the forfeiture, and no one chose to do so.

Ulbricht was clearly aware of it, and did assert a claim to other property that was the subject of the same forfeiture action. The seizure was a default judgement because there was no property owner to contest the forfeiture.

What additional process is due, and to whom is it due?

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#135
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoins are absolutely worthless. If there is any sign of a tech bubble, it is these worthless hashes that people pay hundreds of dollars for. One of the genius aspects of the Bitcoin scam is the limited output and increasing difficulty as it goes on. This keeps the scam going longer. If it were like tulip bulbs, or subprime real estate, or pets.com type stocks, the bubble would eventually burst. With the types of b…

I didn't downvote, but I have to wonder what you're threshhold for not being a scam is? What companies will have to accept it, and how long will it have to be around? I'm pretty amazed that people still think it's a scam when huge companies with massive legal departments are accepting it. That's some pretty extreme skepticism. BTW, there are plenty of easy, legitimate ways to short Bitcoin, but given your extraordina…

> people still think it's a scam when huge companies with massive legal departments are accepting it.

Sub-prime real estate was a scam. Huge companies with massive legal departments protected themselves from the illegal part of the scam - all those loan officers telling people to lie on their loan applications. In fact these banks got their lobbyists to get them TARP bailouts after the scam had run its course.

Banks are willing to trade subprime "liar loans" once legally insulated, so big companies willing to deal with Bitcoin doesn't really mean much.

I didn't say it was impossible to short Bitcoins. They are not FX traded alongside the dollar, euro, yen etc. though.

The central question is, why do Bitcoins have value? Why did subprime real estate loans, pets.com stock and Dutch tulip blubs have value? Actually, both these things were hypothetically more valuable than Bitcoins. Bitcoins are worthless.

When the price of a Bitcoin drops below $100, are people here going to learn a lesson about how value works? I don't think they will. That's the thing - Bitcoin will crash, and those talking it up here won't have learned a thing. If they did, these scams (subprime, pets.com stock, dutch Tulip Bulbs) couldn't keep popping up over time suckering people in. People have no concept of the relation of price to value, and thus are easily fooled.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#136
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no logic. Searching for logic behind bitcoin's price is a fool's errand. You'll trick yourself into believing things that aren't true, because the price of bitcoin is determined by a small number of large players. Those large players enter or exit the market for any reason they feel like. It's gambling, plain and simple. News announcements serve as a trigger for the gamblers to initiate gambles (exit/enter t…

There is logic. All speculative trading is driven by two motivations, fear and greed. The balance of these two decides the price. Before this announcement the balance was about $650. It means that greedy people think it will go higher than $650, and fearful people think it would go lower. Now comes this announcement. About 30.000 bitcoins wil sometime in July come into the hands of someone who will have paid signific…

Is this good news or bad news for the market? It's bad of course.

This is exactly what I meant by "you'll fool yourself into believing things that aren't true." You cannot reason about the price of bitcoin in terms of fundamentals. Not right now; not when the price is a function of a few hundred people (some of whom are maliciously manipulating the market).

I've been closely watching how the price of bitcoin reacts to announcements since mid last year. The price goes up? People come up with a reason that makes sense. The price goes down? People come up with a reason. The price has gone down; you've come up with a reason, and lo, it seems to make sense. Except none of these reasonings make any sense whatsoever because the market isn't logical. It doesn't pay any attention to your theories, or mine, or anyone else's. The price inexorably follows from the actions of fewer than a couple hundred people, almost all of whom are trying to prey off each other. That's the game. Buy to raise the price; sell after others follow your lead.

You can craft a theory that makes sense for any possible upswing or downswing. But what fools we were to think our theories mattered back in November, when the price was almost entirely due to Mt. Gox's market manipulation!

My opinion in this matter has been forged by the heavy hammer of experience. Don't make my mistake; don't delude yourself by having the hubris to think you alone can reason your way around an irrational gambler's market. Here's how it will go. You'll make some money, and you'll feel smart and elated. Then you'll risk a little bit too much on your "insight" and watch as it crumbles beneath your feet and you lose some money. But not too much; you're smart, after all. But then you'll hear stories of others who have fared Bette than you, and you'll start to get a bit jealous. It's just a matter of experience, you'll tell yourself. I'll do better now that I know not to do that again. So you'll try a new, more insightful theory. A theory based on sound fundamentals. And then you'll make a bunch of money, and you'll think you've got it all figured out. So you'll wager even more on your theory (which, somehow, everyone else has seemingly overlooked, but Nevermind that, our theory is based on logic so it must be correct!) and then when the market's irrationality catches up to your reality, you'll lose big.

Greed does indeed drive the market. And greed doesn't play by fair or logical rules.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#137
post #26
post #12

Since you get a bill of sale from the US government I guess these will be the cleanest Bitcoins ever.

Street value of approx: $17,330,000 USD I'd wager it will sell for much less, likely 3/4 of that street price.

Bitcoin being as volatile as it is, we need to clarify street value as of when...

Street value this morning: $18,752,406.34

Street value now (2014-06-12 @ 7pm NYC time): $17,220,321.22 (it lost $110,000 in value in the hour since you posted)

I'd wager it will sell for around 1/2 its street value when the auction is completed.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#138
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there are certainly wanton abuses of civil forfeiture statutes, linked to even in this comment thread, applying them here is a no-brainer. Silk Road was very clearly a marketplace for illegal drugs, and the brokerage fee that DPR collected (whoever he or she is) is clearly illegal. Again, there are obviously situations where civil forfeiture is improperly utilized. This is not one of them, in my opinion.

If it's "clearly illegal," the court should have no trouble coming to the correct conclusion. It's no justification for permanent asset forfeiture without a trial.

> If it's "clearly illegal," the court should have no trouble coming to the correct conclusion. It's no justification for permanent asset forfeiture without a trial.

You can't have a trial with only one party.

The owner of the bitcoins had an opportunity to contest the forfeiture, and didn't step forward to do that. Given the value of the bitcoins and the public nature of the seizure and forfeiture actions, its hardly likely that that was due to lack of effective notice, or it not being worth expending effort to protect the assets.

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#139
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoins have value because they let you buy things.

You'd still be able to buy things if the exchange rate was 1 cent. Where's the rest of the value coming from?

Where does the value of USD come from?

Re: For Sale: 29,656.51306529 Bitcoins

#140

Isn't this a bit presumptuous? Ross William Ulbricht hasn't yet been convicted of anything. I know that they aren't selling his personal bitcoins, but in the (highly unlikely) event that he is found innocent, wouldn't that mean that the Silk Road assets need to be returned to him? How then can they sell them now?

It is presumptuous, but that is how civil forfeiture works. Its atrocious. Take a look at this well written article by the New Yorker Taken: The Use and Abuse of Civil Forfeiture http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2013/08/12/130812fa_fact_...

That's disgusting. FTA: 'Many states, facing fiscal crises, have expanded the reach of their forfeiture statutes, and made it easier for law enforcement to use the revenue however they see fit.' How are they any better than the criminals they're supposed to be protecting us from?
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