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iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

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Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#91

Post by AnthonyMouse »

IBM wrote: post #37

It's pretty clear that Apple is positioning themselves in stark contrast to Google, they want to be the privacy/security company. Internet companies with advertising business models are a dime a dozen so that is a real advantage that differentiates Apple.

> It's pretty clear that Apple is positioning themselves in stark contrast to Google, they want to be the privacy/security company.

I don't see how this move is anything out of line with something Google might do. Google can track you because you're using their services on their OS. They don't need a network of WiFi access points to triangulate your location, they can just read it out of your phone's GPS receiver. Randomizing your MAC when scanning for networks is in the same nature as enabling SSL by default for Google services -- it doesn't hide anything from Google (or, as the case may be, from Apple) but it hides things from other people you don't want observing you.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#92

Post by shurcooL »

DanBC wrote: post #70
shurcooL wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should I have my movements tracked in a store when I'm not using the resources offered by them? To answer your question directly, one of the advantages could be that they can optimize the store layout better so you don't have to walk as much to find what you want. (There are other disadvantages and advantages, by listing one of them I don't exclude the existence of others, but I can't cover everything.)

> one of the advantages could be that they can optimize the store layout better so you don't have to walk as much to find what you want. But stores do not want to do that. Stores know you want a pint of milk and loaf of bread. They put these two items far apart which means you need to walk past all that other stuff, this increasing the chance you'll buy something else. Tracking technology isn't going to ne used to ma…

This is interesting and indicative of a bigger problem.

Why isn't it most profitable for the stores to provide the best experience for customers in order to be most profitable?

Suppose there are two stores:

- Store A. Offers decent experience for the customer.

- Store B. Offers much better experience for the customer.

One would naively expect and hope that, given those two choices, more people would prefer to go to the better Store B and hence it would be more profitable. Hence the stores would try to do their best to serve the customer interests.

Why is it instead more optimal for stores not to optimize for the happiness of its customers?

Could it be because customers are not adept at recognizing which stores offer better experience for them, _and rewarding_ such stores by preferring them over other stores?

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#93

Post by nitrogen »

feld wrote: post #90
nitrogen wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where anybody with physical access to their phone or their computer, or access to their cloud sync data, could get at it.

Do you have proof that it was synced to iCloud? I don't believe it ever was.

It was definitely in computer sync data. I don't use iTunes, so couldn't say whether it went into the cloud from there.

Edit: there are more ways for data to get into the "cloud" than "iCloud".

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#94

Post by shurcooL »

mstolpm wrote: post #74
shurcooL wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should I have my movements tracked in a store when I'm not using the resources offered by them? To answer your question directly, one of the advantages could be that they can optimize the store layout better so you don't have to walk as much to find what you want. (There are other disadvantages and advantages, by listing one of them I don't exclude the existence of others, but I can't cover everything.)

If the store owner has to choose between using the data to make more profit or to enhance customer value, he'll likely choose the first option. You're not supposed to find the cheapest product easily, but that which provides the best profit ratio for the store owner. So, store layout will change in a way to manipulate your buying decision and you will not even notice the reason for the gradual change.

> If the store owner has to choose between using the data to make more profit or to enhance customer value, he'll likely choose the first option.

Are the two things mutually exclusive? Wouldn't it be better if they were one and the same? What can be done to make that so?

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#95

Post by nitrogen »

goldfeld wrote: post #66
nitrogen wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But definitely contradicts a "good citizen/respects you " persona.

Big corps would be hard pressed to be "good citizens" or bear anything resembling respectfulness. They're a multitude of individuals with often conflicting interests who are all given the general direction of going for profit. Maybe an exception could be a big company where a founder who really puts his grand vision/values above anything else is still in control, which is not the case (or has ever been for Apple.)

User IBM's original comment was that Apple is going for the "privacy/security" persona, which is kind of impossible if they're not also acting as a "good citizen" worthy of trust with one's privacy and security.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#96

Post by nitrogen »

feld wrote: post #89
nitrogen wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were users warned about this before the tracking started?

It's NOT tracking. It was only ever stored locally on that device. That's called logging .

Were users warned about this before the logging started?

Edit: FWIW, "track" is the word used in the CNN article I linked.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#97

Post by AnthonyMouse »

praseodym wrote: post #32
brunnsbe wrote: post #6

If this becomes the trend (which in my opinon would be nice) it will become a big problem for companies that specialise in customer tracking e.g. for supermarkets and big department stores. Previously it was quite easy to track a customer, how long he or she spends time in the store, which floors he or she visits, etc. by putting up dummy WiFI-networks that the customers phones find by giving out their MAC-addresses.

The MAC address is stable once a device is authenticated (connected) to the network. With the trend of providing 'free' wifi access within stores, making sure that users connect to that network is enough to continue tracking them.

> The MAC address is stable once a device is authenticated (connected) to the network.

That is necessary to keep the gateway from having to issue a thousand ARP requests (one for every packet you send from a different MAC), but there is no reason why the MAC chosen to connect to the network couldn't change every time you disconnect and reconnect. That would at least prevent you from being tracked between visits to the store [using this tracking method], even if you actually use the network.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#98

Post by shurcooL »

x0x0 wrote: post #87
shurcooL wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm genuinely curious, how does it being a problem for them benefit you? (I'm assuming you're not saying that out of indifferent malice but because you have personal gains, which is normal.) Can you please elaborate on your point?

it's a simple test: if data companies collect where clearly explained to the user, would the user approve or not? "By entering this store, we will permanently record your location every 60 seconds. The main purpose of said data collection is attempting to stitch your actions on the internet to store visits to more effectively sell advertising. Further, we will sell this data to many companies, most of whom we don't d…

Well put analogy.

My guess is that most people would not be okay with that and choose to opt out.

But my question/argument is, would that be a rational decision? I don't see a lot of benefit for the customer to deny the store those options, so why do it if there's nothing to be gained from denying.

> attempting to stitch your actions on the internet to store visits to more effectively sell advertising

I think this is the key factor. If people see themselves as susceptible to such manipulation, then it does benefit them to deny such behavior to prevent stores from affecting them negatively.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#99

Post by r00fus »

geon wrote: post #60
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FT brought up a similar contrast two weeks ago when discussing Apple and Google's smart home strategies. They speculated that Apple is likely "to emphasise the privacy protections built into its smart home system... Apple considers privacy a key advantage over Google...since Google relies on targeted advertising as its main source of income" [1]. This will be an interesting competition. Google, for openness and t…

> Google, for openness and transparency I don't really see it. They have released some stuff as / contributed to open source, but so has Apple. By transparency, do you mean their real name policy?

Notably, more recently Google has become less open. Apps written for AOSP that don't use the "Google Play Services" library are second class citizens.

Google is for "openness" only when it doesn't impact their bottom line.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#100

Post by mnx »

Karunamon wrote: post #9
michaelmior wrote: post #5

I hope it still connects with the real MAC address. Otherwise that could get very problematic.

Why is that? The only good use that comes to mind is MAC filtering, and that's easily defeated anyways.

It might be easily defeated, but some places rely on it, and iOS users would be effectively locked out of those networks.
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