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iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

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Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#51

Post by wmf »

awhitty wrote: post #45
IBM wrote: post #37

It's pretty clear that Apple is positioning themselves in stark contrast to Google, they want to be the privacy/security company. Internet companies with advertising business models are a dime a dozen so that is a real advantage that differentiates Apple.

Maybe I'm a little high on design rhetoric right now, but I see this less in terms of Apple being a privacy/security company and more along the lines of Apple being a user-centered design company. No user wants their data shuffled around and sold, so any company that relies on the commodification of its users' data is inherently at odds with its users' needs.

Google probably also sees themselves as user-centered by providing advanced services for free.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#52

Post by _greim_ »

shurcooL wrote: post #38
_greim_ wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think on the general principle of privacy. But also, the idea that the more trackable you are, the more easily manipulated you are by marketers and advertisers. Free markets work better the more consumers are rational. Giving marketers deep psychological and behavioral insight increasingly enables them to circumvent rationality and "hack" consumers in various ways.

Thanks for a constructive and very insightful response. This definitely seems to be a valid reason why people would be against being tracked. We don't want to be more easily manipulated (through the data that the ones doing tracking are able to acquire) and coerced into buying things we don't want/need (but the ones doing tracking want us to buy). Would it be accurate to describe it like this: the consumers' interest…

> Would it be accurate to describe it like this: the consumers' interests are to be rational, less easily manipulated and "unhackable", and being tracked is a threat to those interests.

In my view, yes. Being rational is by definition the only way to make my life better. The harder it is to be rational—to perceive the truth through all the layers of bullshit and manipulation—the less I trust my own conclusions, and free markets in general.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#53

Post by wmf »

pmorici wrote: post #7
brunnsbe wrote: post #6

If this becomes the trend (which in my opinon would be nice) it will become a big problem for companies that specialise in customer tracking e.g. for supermarkets and big department stores. Previously it was quite easy to track a customer, how long he or she spends time in the store, which floors he or she visits, etc. by putting up dummy WiFI-networks that the customers phones find by giving out their MAC-addresses.

What stops them from switching to tracking via the hardware address of the cellular radio?

Great idea; if public outrage forces police to stop using Stingrays then grocery stores can start buying them instead.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#54

Post by mikeash »

praseodym wrote: post #32
brunnsbe wrote: post #6

If this becomes the trend (which in my opinon would be nice) it will become a big problem for companies that specialise in customer tracking e.g. for supermarkets and big department stores. Previously it was quite easy to track a customer, how long he or she spends time in the store, which floors he or she visits, etc. by putting up dummy WiFI-networks that the customers phones find by giving out their MAC-addresses.

The MAC address is stable once a device is authenticated (connected) to the network. With the trend of providing 'free' wifi access within stores, making sure that users connect to that network is enough to continue tracking them.

How will you make sure of that, though? Only a tiny fraction of smartphone users will bother to connect to your wifi, and it'll be a skewed sample.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#55

Post by wmf »

yuubi wrote: post #28

We learned during the prosecution of Swartz that MAC addresses are the analog of VIN number numbers, and that tampering with them is a sign of ill intent. I await the federal case against Apple or an Apple customer with bated breath.

It's only a sign of ill intent if nobody does it. If everybody does it (because it's on by default) then it's normal.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#56

Post by goldfeld »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #47
IBM wrote: post #37

It's pretty clear that Apple is positioning themselves in stark contrast to Google, they want to be the privacy/security company. Internet companies with advertising business models are a dime a dozen so that is a real advantage that differentiates Apple.

The FT brought up a similar contrast two weeks ago when discussing Apple and Google's smart home strategies. They speculated that Apple is likely "to emphasise the privacy protections built into its smart home system... Apple considers privacy a key advantage over Google...since Google relies on targeted advertising as its main source of income" [1]. This will be an interesting competition. Google, for openness and t…

It's not really transparency when what they have on you is far more extensive than what they show you. I'd say Google is for control as much as Apple, I'll concede openness vs. privacy which both sound like something spouted out by a suit.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#57

Post by nitrogen »

viscanti wrote: post #44
nitrogen wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty clear that Apple is positioning themselves in stark contrast to Google, they want to be the privacy/security company. Internet companies with advertising business models are a dime a dozen so that is a real advantage that differentiates Apple. It's difficult to reconcile this claim with their participation in PRISM et. al., previous long-term storage of cell tower locations, ownership of a mobile ad netwo…

> and wanton abuse of the patent system to stifle competition. Use (or abuse) of the patent system seems entirely orthogonal to privacy/security.

But definitely contradicts a "good citizen/respects you" persona.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#58

Post by wikyd »

hatsix wrote: post #43
IBM wrote: post #37

It's pretty clear that Apple is positioning themselves in stark contrast to Google, they want to be the privacy/security company. Internet companies with advertising business models are a dime a dozen so that is a real advantage that differentiates Apple.

> It's pretty clear that Apple is positioning themselves in stark contrast to Google, they want to be the privacy/security company. Internet companies with advertising business models are a dime a dozen so that is a real advantage that differentiates Apple. Yes, Apple certainly wouldn't develop/release a product whose sole purpose is to track user's physical presence, with the primary use point being able to sell the…

The difference is that for iBeacon to track devices the user has to download an app related to the beacons and give permission. MAC address tracking happens without the user giving consent.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#59

Post by josephlord »

kmfrk wrote: post #29
brunnsbe wrote: post #6

If this becomes the trend (which in my opinon would be nice) it will become a big problem for companies that specialise in customer tracking e.g. for supermarkets and big department stores. Previously it was quite easy to track a customer, how long he or she spends time in the store, which floors he or she visits, etc. by putting up dummy WiFI-networks that the customers phones find by giving out their MAC-addresses.

Privacy is inversely proportional to utility. It's basically the first rule of privacy.

Strongly disagree. The relationship, while it can exist in some areas is by no means universal and certainly not linear. In many cases privacy may be invaded for no end user utility and in others utility may be possible without any privacy costs. Of course some things cannot be offered with privacy fully preserved.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#60

Post by geon »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #47
IBM wrote: post #37

It's pretty clear that Apple is positioning themselves in stark contrast to Google, they want to be the privacy/security company. Internet companies with advertising business models are a dime a dozen so that is a real advantage that differentiates Apple.

The FT brought up a similar contrast two weeks ago when discussing Apple and Google's smart home strategies. They speculated that Apple is likely "to emphasise the privacy protections built into its smart home system... Apple considers privacy a key advantage over Google...since Google relies on targeted advertising as its main source of income" [1]. This will be an interesting competition. Google, for openness and t…

> Google, for openness and transparency

I don't really see it. They have released some stuff as / contributed to open source, but so has Apple.

By transparency, do you mean their real name policy?

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