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iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

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Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#61

Post by nitrogen »

kevinchen wrote: post #49
nitrogen wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty clear that Apple is positioning themselves in stark contrast to Google, they want to be the privacy/security company. Internet companies with advertising business models are a dime a dozen so that is a real advantage that differentiates Apple. It's difficult to reconcile this claim with their participation in PRISM et. al., previous long-term storage of cell tower locations, ownership of a mobile ad netwo…

- We still don't know whether or not the companies on the PRISM slides were participating voluntarily or even knowingly. - I don't see how constructing a database of cell tower locations violates privacy. They are beacons used for finding the user's location when they have location services turned on. - iAd is a joke of an ad network, and stores a negligible amount of user data compared to Google's. It's also relativ…

- I don't see how constructing a database of cell tower locations violates privacy. They are beacons used for finding the user's location when they have location services turned on.

They were storing location history: http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/mobile/04/20/iphone.tracking/in...

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#62

Post by nitrogen »

wikyd wrote: post #58
hatsix wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's pretty clear that Apple is positioning themselves in stark contrast to Google, they want to be the privacy/security company. Internet companies with advertising business models are a dime a dozen so that is a real advantage that differentiates Apple. Yes, Apple certainly wouldn't develop/release a product whose sole purpose is to track user's physical presence, with the primary use point being able to sell the…

The difference is that for iBeacon to track devices the user has to download an app related to the beacons and give permission. MAC address tracking happens without the user giving consent.

Is it not possible to track devices based on their Bluetooth MAC?

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#63

Post by shurcooL »

Spooky23 wrote: post #48
shurcooL wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm genuinely curious, how does it being a problem for them benefit you? (I'm assuming you're not saying that out of indifferent malice but because you have personal gains, which is normal.) Can you please elaborate on your point?

Why should I have my movements tracked in a store when I'm not using the resources offered by them? They should feel lucky to have me in their store and provide service, not Orwellian surveillance. My other beef here is that this is just another way to further dumb down and make retail employment completely mindless.

> Why should I have my movements tracked in a store when I'm not using the resources offered by them?

To answer your question directly, one of the advantages could be that they can optimize the store layout better so you don't have to walk as much to find what you want.

(There are other disadvantages and advantages, by listing one of them I don't exclude the existence of others, but I can't cover everything.)

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#64

Post by awhitty »

wmf wrote: post #51
awhitty wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm a little high on design rhetoric right now, but I see this less in terms of Apple being a privacy/security company and more along the lines of Apple being a user-centered design company. No user wants their data shuffled around and sold, so any company that relies on the commodification of its users' data is inherently at odds with its users' needs.

Google probably also sees themselves as user-centered by providing advanced services for free.

I think that's the "easy way out," in a way. Sure, it's not easy to provide the services for free, but it also doesn't particularly excuse them.

Like Netflix vs. YouTube. Netflix fights for your ability to stream HD videos comfortably because you pay for the service. YouTube crams a perfectly-buffered, crisp HD ad down your throat before leaving you with a video that might stutter or fail to load even at 480p. Sure, people can't complain when it's free (though they do), but I think it really limits what an experience can be, and I don't consider that particularly user-centered.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

Edit: Fixed some parallel structure

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#65

Post by glhaynes »

nitrogen wrote: post #61
kevinchen wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- We still don't know whether or not the companies on the PRISM slides were participating voluntarily or even knowingly. - I don't see how constructing a database of cell tower locations violates privacy. They are beacons used for finding the user's location when they have location services turned on. - iAd is a joke of an ad network, and stores a negligible amount of user data compared to Google's. It's also relativ…

- I don't see how constructing a database of cell tower locations violates privacy. They are beacons used for finding the user's location when they have location services turned on. They were storing location history : http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/mobile/04/20/iphone.tracking/in...

On the user's devices.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#66

Post by goldfeld »

nitrogen wrote: post #57
viscanti wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and wanton abuse of the patent system to stifle competition. Use (or abuse) of the patent system seems entirely orthogonal to privacy/security.

But definitely contradicts a "good citizen/respects you " persona.

Big corps would be hard pressed to be "good citizens" or bear anything resembling respectfulness. They're a multitude of individuals with often conflicting interests who are all given the general direction of going for profit. Maybe an exception could be a big company where a founder who really puts his grand vision/values above anything else is still in control, which is not the case (or has ever been for Apple.)

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#67

Post by shurcooL »

nitrogen wrote: post #42
shurcooL wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for a constructive response to my question. I'm simply trying to gain a better understanding of the situation. > How would you feel if every time you were in a store, an employee followed you around and took notes on your actions? Most people would feel uneasy/bothered by that. But are those emotions warranted? If we did not get such emotions, would the same scenario be okay? Or are the emotions a consequence…

It's also worth noting that the employee following you around is a visible behavior, while being tracked via Wi-Fi mac addresses is much less intrusive. It's less visibly intrusive, but the effect is the same. Our instincts aren't very good at reacting to effects we can't see, having evolved in a world where there were no undetectable ways for someone to follow us. Thus, we should consider what our natural reactions…

> It's less visibly intrusive, but the effect is the same. Our instincts aren't very good at reacting to effects we can't see

Absolutely true.

We should also consider the underlying causes of certain emotions, and whether or not they should be warranted.

Many phobias are unwarranted fears, so the goal is to eliminate the emotion rather than the underlying source. But the decision to _try_ to eliminate the fear can only be done after identifying and confirming that the fear is indeed unwarranted and unhealthy.

On the other hand, if the emotion is warranted, then it's completely valid.

What I'm suggesting is that human emotion serve as a really good indicator, but they cannot be taken as the absolute truth. It's best to investigate the actual facts and come up with logical conclusions. So neither trusting emotions blindly, nor ignoring them completely is the best course of action, but something in between.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#68

Post by JumpCrisscross »

goldfeld wrote: post #56
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FT brought up a similar contrast two weeks ago when discussing Apple and Google's smart home strategies. They speculated that Apple is likely "to emphasise the privacy protections built into its smart home system... Apple considers privacy a key advantage over Google...since Google relies on targeted advertising as its main source of income" [1]. This will be an interesting competition. Google, for openness and t…

It's not really transparency when what they have on you is far more extensive than what they show you. I'd say Google is for control as much as Apple, I'll concede openness vs. privacy which both sound like something spouted out by a suit.

> I'd say Google is for control as much as Apple, I'll concede openness vs. privacy which both sound like something spouted out by a suit.

Naturally they are both vying for leverage. To borrow a line from The Lords of Strategy, "the key way to think about competitive advantage is to think about how to design ecology in such a way to achieve goals you’re trying to pursue" [1].

Apple monetises device sales. It fiercely protects those sales by ensuring everything one does in its ecosystem is done through its devices. That fortification gives it more freedom with user data, which it can play against Google by encrypting and anonymizing its users' activity.

Google, on the other hand, monetises its access to user data. It fiercely protects that access by ensuring everything one does in its ecosystem runs through its servers. That fortification gives it more freedom with devices and standards, which it can play against Apple by encouraging modularity, adaptability, and customisation.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/The-Lords-Strategy-Intellectual-Corpor...

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#69

Post by uxp »

nitrogen wrote: post #61
kevinchen wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- We still don't know whether or not the companies on the PRISM slides were participating voluntarily or even knowingly. - I don't see how constructing a database of cell tower locations violates privacy. They are beacons used for finding the user's location when they have location services turned on. - iAd is a joke of an ad network, and stores a negligible amount of user data compared to Google's. It's also relativ…

- I don't see how constructing a database of cell tower locations violates privacy. They are beacons used for finding the user's location when they have location services turned on. They were storing location history : http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/mobile/04/20/iphone.tracking/in...

This again? They were storing location history as to more easily pinpoint the user's location without having to maintain a constant connection with a GPS satellite. They weren't storing it and sending it off to the NSA, your local police, or their own data center to mine it.

Re: iOS 8 randomises the MAC address while scanning for WiFi networks

#70

Post by DanBC »

shurcooL wrote: post #63
Spooky23 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should I have my movements tracked in a store when I'm not using the resources offered by them? They should feel lucky to have me in their store and provide service, not Orwellian surveillance. My other beef here is that this is just another way to further dumb down and make retail employment completely mindless.

> Why should I have my movements tracked in a store when I'm not using the resources offered by them? To answer your question directly, one of the advantages could be that they can optimize the store layout better so you don't have to walk as much to find what you want. (There are other disadvantages and advantages, by listing one of them I don't exclude the existence of others, but I can't cover everything.)

> one of the advantages could be that they can optimize the store layout better so you don't have to walk as much to find what you want.

But stores do not want to do that. Stores know you want a pint of milk and loaf of bread. They put these two items far apart which means you need to walk past all that other stuff, this increasing the chance you'll buy something else.

Tracking technology isn't going to ne used to make my experience nicer unless that translates into more money fornthe store.

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