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An open letter on feminism in tech

modelviewculture.com

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Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#231

Post by jdp23 »

bucketsbuckets wrote: post #211
jdp23 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most women in tech I know have multiple examples of stuff like the authors describe happening to them. Multiple guys in this thread confirm that yes, it happens and is observable. Remember that the authors weren't only talking about harassment. And of course that doesn't mean it happens in your organization, but you can also see and come into contact with it elsewhere -- conferences, networking events, online discuss…

> Most women in tech I know have multiple examples of stuff like the authors describe happening to them. Multiple guys in this thread confirm that yes, it happens and is observable. To reiterate, what you've demonstrated is that there are N anecdotes of sexual harassment in the industry, for some N > 0. (Set aside M anecdotes of men and women who have not personally encountered such a thing.) You have not demonstrate…

True, I haven't absolutely proven my point. What's your evidence disproving it?

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#232

Post by pekk »

steveklabnik wrote: post #107
mycroft-holmes wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are going to respond my making generailized hate speech towards all men in the industry. This is a large part of my problem with some of the MVC writers. If you're a male, you're guilty. If you're white and male, you're really guilty.

I am a straight white male, and I know (and am friends with) many of the MVC writers. I even sponsored the latest issue. So I can say, empirically, you're wrong.

You seem like a nice guy, but I think this is about what arguments get deployed if you are perceived not to be toeing a specific kind of feminist line. Socially, in certain circles, you are not allowed to disagree or even question and maybe not talk at all unless you have some kind of special sex/race combination. And the same facts or arguments deployed will be acceptable or despicable depending on WHO says them.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#233

Post by mreiland »

226jg5 wrote: post #166

This is a topic I feel very strongly about, but I have to treat like it's radioactive. Hence, this is a throwaway account and I will not be using it again. I am a white male in my early 30s. I'm strongly libertarian and do everything in my power to make sure that people have the opportunity to work in a safe and non-threatening environment. I go out of my way to make sure that people who do not share my "type A" pers…

And the worst part is that not all of them are that way.

Like you, my mother was also strongly feminist. She had a very strong personality, and I grew up being a "feminist".

It wasn't until I got older and started seeing the movement as a whole that I started distancing myself from it.

Because I agree that wrongs need to be righted, and that women have every right to equality as men.

I just don't agree that means I should be ashamed of my gender, or that I'm automatically an asshole.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#234

Post by anuleczka »

fred_durst wrote: post #199
anuleczka wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the thing, though. By promoting a more feminist, egalitarian, diverse culture for tech, we by definition eliminate the jerks. Why do we have to take as a given that we have to take the jerks along with the money?

I absolutely agree. I was only relaying that maybe if we focus more on the jerk part, and less on the specifics of the brand of jerk we might help solve the problem of all the people who have to deal with jerks in this industry, not just one specific group.

Sure! But I guess my point is that by embracing the voices of marginalized groups, we can solve a huge chunk of that at once. If you think about it, jerks usually act the way they do because of a perceived power differential. The guy with enough insecurity to harass a woman (or POC, or LBGTQ person) is likely to try to power trip other men, too.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#235

Post by eqdw »

Fomite wrote: post #77
mycroft-holmes wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are going to respond my making generailized hate speech towards all men in the industry. This is a large part of my problem with some of the MVC writers. If you're a male, you're guilty. If you're white and male, you're really guilty.

As a white male, I've never encountered this when actually interacting with, well, any feminist I've ever met.

As a white male, I have.

Wanna trade anecdotes on anything else? I've got a shiny holographic bystander-effect story that's raring to go, having read this (http://kirstensamazing.com/stop-leaning-in-put-down-your-iph...) earlier

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#236

Post by Consultant32452 »

jdp23 wrote: post #58
optimusclimb wrote: post #3

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE t…

Yes, as a male, I see this behavior regularly. If you're not seeing it, it's statistically highly unlikely that you're not coming into contact with it. Reading and understanding feminist perspectives can help you become more observant. Hacker News provides plenty of opportunities for practice identifying hostile-to-women comments. If you're not hearing about it through word of mouth, then it could be that you don't t…

I've worked with women my whole life in tech. I sit right next to one currently and she's an awesome talent and from what I can tell is an equal member of the team. I do see some passive things like their opinions not being heard as much and I think that has almost as much to do with how they speak (not with confidence) as it does their gender. I try to make a point to listen more carefully and help promote the ideas of my female coworkers when they are good. I've never seen nor heard of any of the more overt things mentioned in the blog post like being groped or anything of the sort. Probably the worst I've heard is the guys lamenting that there are no women on the team and commenting that they can't find women interviewees that have the skills required for the type of project we were doing.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#237

Post by xamebax »

arzugula wrote: post #43

> Feminism is the radical notion that women are people, and that we want to be treated as equals. Don’t let someone else pretend otherwise out of their own misguided notions. So what do we call the feminists who work to suppress research that shows gender symmetry in domestic violence? What do we call the feminists who demonize men as rapists, deadbeats, child molesters, and abusers? What do we call the feminists who…

> So what do we call the feminists who work to suppress research that shows gender symmetry in domestic violence?

> What do we call the feminists who demonize men as rapists, deadbeats, child molesters, and abusers?

> What do we call the feminists who lobby against equal parenting rights for fathers and for stripping the right to due process of those accused of domestic or sexual violence?

I'd call them non-existent.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#238

Post by mreiland »

was_hellbanned wrote: post #168
mreiland wrote: post #61

I just want to develop software, and I don't personally give a shit about the gender of the people I'm working with. ...Until they start shoving these sorts of issues down my throat. If I get to choose between the male that just wants to develop software and the female who wants to tell me all about how terrible it is working in our industry as a woman, I'm going to pick the male. Why? Because I'm very goal oriented…

You might want to revise your post. It has some good points in it (e.g. the CEO bit), but they're hidden inside a very long rant laced with red flags like: Until they start shoving these sorts of issues down my throat I'm willing to bet that nobody has ever done anything like shoving anything down your throat, and that sort of repulsive hyperbole is just a marker for irrational, reactionary flame-bait. Incidentally,…

I don't really care if you approve or not, but I think honesty on your part would have you clarifying that you made an assumption about blog posts being the only possible way I've ever experienced interaction on this topic.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#239

Post by worksaf »

mreiland wrote: post #233
226jg5 wrote: post #166

This is a topic I feel very strongly about, but I have to treat like it's radioactive. Hence, this is a throwaway account and I will not be using it again. I am a white male in my early 30s. I'm strongly libertarian and do everything in my power to make sure that people have the opportunity to work in a safe and non-threatening environment. I go out of my way to make sure that people who do not share my "type A" pers…

And the worst part is that not all of them are that way. Like you, my mother was also strongly feminist. She had a very strong personality, and I grew up being a "feminist". It wasn't until I got older and started seeing the movement as a whole that I started distancing myself from it. Because I agree that wrongs need to be righted, and that women have every right to equality as men. I just don't agree that means I s…

Thank you for making better points than I did. I feel like there is no "discussion" here, just blatant attacks on anyone who disagrees with any of the conclusions made by the authors.

Re: An open letter on feminism in tech

#240

Post by joaren »

Fomite wrote: post #88
kmf wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a general rule of thumb: if women have it bad, men have it worse. Can you honestly write that and actually believe it? Even better, can you give some examples to justify it? That's a pretty big claim, and one that, at face value, seems pretty unlikely.

I can't even read it with a straight face.

And it's exactly this sort of visceral reaction that will keep the "women are victims" meme going long after we're all dead. It's evolutionarily beneficial, after all, we are descended from twice as many women as men. You don't think that happened purely by coincidence or as a "societal construct" did you?
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