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Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

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Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#201

Post by phaus »

pessimizer wrote: post #152
rbanffy wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is the wrong choice. WHat would the web gain if Mozilla lost most of its user base? Could we trust Apple, Microsoft and Google to have a moral backbone?

What would the web gain if Mozilla could just be pushed into chasing whatever Apple, Microsoft, and Google decide to do for fear of some users jumping ship? edit: Mozilla needs to cultivate its brand, and set itself apart from the other browsers through actual differences in philosophy. Maybe they need a John Legere...

The development of web browsers has pretty much always been about chasing what everyone else is doing. You can introduce your own technologies, but unless you want your entire user-base to leave, you had better make sure the content they want to view works on your browser.

P.S. John Legere is full of shit. He's just rebranding a terrible company in an industry where all of the companies are terrible. Its a matter of survival, not ideology.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#202

Post by woah »

hadoukenio wrote: post #112
13throwaway wrote: post #46

If all major browsers support eme, every website will use it. Say goodbye to youtube-dl. Maybe next year eme will be updated to "protect" html. Soon the entire web may be a closed system. It doesn't matter what the FCC decides on Friday, today is the day the web dies, at mozilla's hands. There is always a choice mozilla, please make the right one.

Unfortunately your comment sounds about right. The bright side is that information wants to be free. If one day we have a closed web on a two-tier Internet, there will always be a group of people wanting to make it work like the old way. Unless they somehow made it illegal, the libre internet with an open ecosystem will always be available.

It may be time for a refresh in any case.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#203

Post by wolfgke »

gizmo686 wrote: post #123
saganus wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that no one can guarantee that the "opt-out" choice will continue to be there in the foreseeable future. What will happen when, suddenly Mozilla starts "feeling the pressure" to remove that option? What then? The problem is the building's foundations, not the decoration.

Who would be pressuring Mozilla to remove the option?

The users. If all browsers implement DRM, what reason is there to stay on Firefox?

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#204

Post by azakai »

ewzimm wrote: post #193
azakai wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a case where Mozilla thinks that by sticking around they can do more good than by killing this particular attack on the free web. How can Mozilla kill it? It simply doesn't have the power, faced with Google, Microsoft and Apple implementing EME. Yes, Mozilla could have taken a pure, principled stance and avoided EME. Perhaps some thoughtful people would use Firefox for that reason. But those same thoughtful…

This is the truth. There has been no effective movement against DRM. The EFF is more guilty than Mozilla in this case because fighting DRM is a core function of the EFF's, while adapting to established web standards is Mozilla's primary function.

Yeah, I wish the EFF had done more, and I wonder what would have happened if the EFF had taken a more aggressive strategy to fight EME a while back.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#205

Post by wolfgke »

azakai wrote: post #140
GuiA wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ding ding ding! You've hit the nail on the head. Mozilla has no real power over the web. Google, Microsoft, and Apple have the power (look at the names associated with EME DRM - what a surprise). Mozilla has an illusion of power, which is tolerated by the other actors because it makes everyone happy. But no one should mistake it for real leverage.

> Mozilla has no real power over the web. Google, Microsoft, and Apple have the power (look at the names associated with EME DRM - what a surprise). That's not right either. It's the users that have the power. Users can pick which browsers they use and which sites they visit. There was essentially no boycott of EME-shipping browsers (Chrome and Internet Explorer). That shows that we, the people on the internet, did n…

> There was essentially no boycott of EME-shipping browsers (Chrome and Internet Explorer).

Or most users weren't aware of their choices. Mozilla could have campaigned to make users aware of it and go back to Firefox. Instead they chose the other direction. :-(

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#206

Post by pessimizer »

tzs wrote: post #177
michaelt wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point of replacing Flash with HTML5 video is to get rid of buggy third party plugins that crash all the time and have shitty cross-platform support. If HTML5 video is going to rely on buggy third party DRM plugins, we lose the benefit that was the whole point of HTML5 video.

> If HTML5 video is going to rely on buggy third party DRM plugins, we lose the benefit that was the whole point of HTML5 video Only HTML5 video that has DRM will rely on EME plugins. We've lost nothing. In fact we've gained. HTML5 video now has a strict superset of the capabilities it had before. Without EME: Flash HTML5 +------+--------+ non-DRM video | yes | yes | +------+--------+ DRM video | yes | no | +------+-…

All video will now have DRM. We have lost video that did not have DRM.

It will now be almost as easy to implement video with DRM in production as it is to implement HTML5 video without DRM. Every provider will now use DRM. Netflix will use fancy DRM, which mostly works. Everyone else will pay $19.95 for theirs.

Never thought we were going to bring back the age of Realplayer (and the million others.)

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#207

Post by dllthomas »

kevincrane wrote: post #164
dllthomas wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If content providers knew that there was a large chunk of users they'd be excluding by choosing the DRM option, they would be less likely to choose it. Firefox may be only 20% of web users, but that's still a lot of revenue to leave on the table if we can rely on firefox users to stick with firefox. I don't know whether or not we can - apparently, Mozilla is worried about it. The best option might be to sink this dev…

How many users would stick around when YouTube or Netflix stop working though?

Oh, I don't know that they made the wrong decision - I have every expectation that they thought about this as well and decided it was too likely they did not have the clout. I said as much.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#208

Post by zimbatm »

verbin217 wrote: post #94
revelation wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, the evergreen of explanations by those that betray their principles and users (or, you know, voters). They exercised a freedom of choice they had, and this is the decision they made. This is what we judge them on. No backsies, no "but I didn't want to", just pure "go fuck yourself Mozilla".

Bullshit. Sometimes you're forced to either do something shitty or be competitively displaced by actors that will do it anyway. Do you really want Mozilla to fall on their sword and leave us with worse alternatives? I don't understand how you could be upset with Mozilla about this. The decision is basically being made for them.

Give me one site whose videos you can't watch on Firefox for Windows or Mac currently.

The only real contender is Netflix but only once the Silverlight plugins reaches EOL. At that point Netflix will have to choose if they want to risk loosing 16% (est.) of their Firefox customers. Of course if Mozilla decides to implement DRM right now it won't be an issue for them.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#209

Post by woah »

viraptor wrote: post #11
EduardoBautista wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netflix has been using DRM for years, does it really make it worse?

Do you have a native and supported way to watch Netflix on Linux? No. So it does make the experience worse (it's one of the biggest missing components, not implying the only one).

You might want to try popcorn time. I have found the UI to actually exceed Netflix's while giving me pure piracy unencumbered by any DRM. I just read that they have added TV shows to the new version.

If the content industry is going to keep doing this shit, they don't deserve our money. Don't worry about the artists, if these are the people they have chosen to sign their lives away to.

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