Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose • Hacker News Board

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#91

Post by pdpi » Wed, May 14, 2014, 10:45 PM UTC

kevingadd wrote: post #87

pdpi wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, great. Go fuck yourself Mozilla. Now what? What real alternative did they have? Unlike RMS, Mozilla have always played with a more pragmatic strategy. If you want to win this war, you need to educate users. Being that only a handful of people out there actively care about privacy issues and platform openness, you need to produce a compelling product first and foremost, and then push your agenda on top of that. If…

A browser 1% of the internet uses is a browser nobody can use. We already have extensive problems with mobile sites being tuned to only work against webkit - or even worse, only work against safari - if Firefox's share drops into the single percentage points because things like Netflix, Farmville and Youtube don't work, due to the exclusion of proprietary web features like plugins and H264, it will become so insigifi…

Yes, my point exactly. Battle is lost. There's too much at stake here to cripple the long term for a moral victory.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#92

Post by kevingadd » Wed, May 14, 2014, 10:45 PM UTC

saganus wrote: post #52

nullc wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that thats quite fair— Firefox won't run the CDM without user consent. You can still say no. Having a choice doesn't magically resolve the issues, it doesn't prevent content providers from making things formerly available unavailable, it doesn't help us (as users) make better more considered decisions rather than clicking yes a lot to get things done, etc. But it does retain the choice to not run this st…

The problem is that no one can guarantee that the "opt-out" choice will continue to be there in the foreseeable future. What will happen when, suddenly Mozilla starts "feeling the pressure" to remove that option? What then? The problem is the building's foundations, not the decoration.

It's open source - actually open source. If they make the CDM on by default, you change a bool in the .cpp file and recompile it.

Really, come on. You should understand this. Firefox isn't like Chromium, where the 'blessed' Google version, Chrome, has dozens of important features sitting behind proprietary black boxes - the Firefox you download off Mozilla's website is something you could literally compile yourself. I've compiled Firefox dozens of times, sometimes with in-development patches for things like gamepad support added in.

Your fear is pure paranoia.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#93

Post by higherpurpose » Wed, May 14, 2014, 10:46 PM UTC

mcpherrinm wrote: post #71

acak wrote: post #64

I liked Ubuntu's approach where they asked you on startup if you want to install/enable proprietary packages like Flash or some graphics drivers. Is it tough for Mozilla to prompt the user to do something similar with DRM stuff on first run? i.e. Telling them these are the features not supported by Mozilla in principle but are a) implemented to be in compliance with standards and b) required if you choose to use serv…

Mozilla has explicitly said the DRM plugin won't run without user consent. How this prompt exactly looks isn't clear to me, but it seems like you're getting the option you want today.

Pretty sure it means it will run by default, and you'd have a to be part of a minority group on HN to know that you can even do that in Firefox.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#94

Post by verbin217 » Wed, May 14, 2014, 10:46 PM UTC

revelation wrote: post #60

suprgeek wrote: post #9

Mozilla had to be dragged into this acceptance kicking and screaming (metaphorically). They were faced with a hard choice, Not implement EME (HTML5 DRM) and risk users moving to other browsers (user loss) or implement EME and risk looking like they are contradicting their core mission (trust loss). They figured a little loss of trust is worth keeping most of the users on the Mozilla platform - which in my view is the…

Right, the evergreen of explanations by those that betray their principles and users (or, you know, voters). They exercised a freedom of choice they had, and this is the decision they made. This is what we judge them on. No backsies, no "but I didn't want to", just pure "go fuck yourself Mozilla".

Bullshit. Sometimes you're forced to either do something shitty or be competitively displaced by actors that will do it anyway. Do you really want Mozilla to fall on their sword and leave us with worse alternatives? I don't understand how you could be upset with Mozilla about this. The decision is basically being made for them.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#95

Post by revelation » Wed, May 14, 2014, 10:47 PM UTC

pdpi wrote: post #80

revelation wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, the evergreen of explanations by those that betray their principles and users (or, you know, voters). They exercised a freedom of choice they had, and this is the decision they made. This is what we judge them on. No backsies, no "but I didn't want to", just pure "go fuck yourself Mozilla".

Ok, great. Go fuck yourself Mozilla. Now what? What real alternative did they have? Unlike RMS, Mozilla have always played with a more pragmatic strategy. If you want to win this war, you need to educate users. Being that only a handful of people out there actively care about privacy issues and platform openness, you need to produce a compelling product first and foremost, and then push your agenda on top of that. If…

The war isn't lost because at the end of the day customers and distributors like Apple or Amazon despise it. I just bought this movie and it says my beamer isn't HDCP ready? Nobody wants to deal with that.

Today, we just lost a battle. In it, the Google funded Mozilla mercenaries were slaughtered, their forces diminished. We could award them a medal for their valiant effort, but you know they are dead. The war in the future isn't won or lost on their actions.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#96

Post by valleyer » Wed, May 14, 2014, 10:47 PM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #88

barrkel wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the wrong choice. It's the same BS I remember reading on slides from graphics card vendors excusing some other way of selling the user down the river. Content can adapt to reach their customers. Bend here and the web itself is under threat. Mozilla needs a social contract like Debian, since it seems clear they can't rely on leadership for backbone.

Did you seriously just equate closed source graphics drivers to slavery?

Can you explain how you came to that interpretation?

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#97

Post by dllthomas » Wed, May 14, 2014, 10:47 PM UTC

nullc wrote: post #35

wolfgke wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For people who want DRM there are already enough browser choices. On the other hand for people who refuse DRM there's only one choice - and soon zero.

I'm not sure that thats quite fair— Firefox won't run the CDM without user consent. You can still say no. Having a choice doesn't magically resolve the issues, it doesn't prevent content providers from making things formerly available unavailable, it doesn't help us (as users) make better more considered decisions rather than clicking yes a lot to get things done, etc. But it does retain the choice to not run this st…

If content providers knew that there was a large chunk of users they'd be excluding by choosing the DRM option, they would be less likely to choose it. Firefox may be only 20% of web users, but that's still a lot of revenue to leave on the table if we can rely on firefox users to stick with firefox. I don't know whether or not we can - apparently, Mozilla is worried about it.

The best option might be to sink this development energy into something that will draw users from other browsers, if they can figure out what...

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#98

Post by higherpurpose » Wed, May 14, 2014, 10:47 PM UTC

EduardoBautista wrote: post #2

How about just ignore the websites that implement DRM and let the free market decide if those websites will survive? People treat DRM as if it was going to turn us into North Korea when it comes to internet access.

Unfortunately, the only "free market" for non-DRM movies/shows is piracy.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#99

Post by TylerE » Wed, May 14, 2014, 10:48 PM UTC

valleyer wrote: post #96

TylerE wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you seriously just equate closed source graphics drivers to slavery?

Can you explain how you came to that interpretation?

Where do you think the phrase "sold down the river" came from - from slaves being sold to be sent down the Mississippi River to the slave markets in New Orleans.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#100

Post by xxs » Wed, May 14, 2014, 10:49 PM UTC

klodolph wrote: post #78

wyager wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It absolutely can be disassembled. It's information-theoretically impossible to have a video format that people can watch, but can't transcode.

So what you do is you use the DRM API to negotiate a way to transfer a decryption key to a secure hardware module in the consumer's device. Having the source code to the Firefox component doesn't give you access to the firmware or keys stored in the module. (Yes, you can hack hardware. But it's way more expensive.)

You can always screen capture the VGA port, DRM will never/ever work.