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Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

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Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#191

Post by pessimizer »

azakai wrote: post #175
pessimizer wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would the web gain if Mozilla could just be pushed into chasing whatever Apple, Microsoft, and Google decide to do for fear of some users jumping ship? edit: Mozilla needs to cultivate its brand, and set itself apart from the other browsers through actual differences in philosophy. Maybe they need a John Legere...

Mozilla has been different in philosophy. It's the only browser created by a nonprofit, and it fights for open web causes all the time. I think people that care about that are aware of it. But the facts remain that the vast majority of users don't care about the philosophical differences. When Chrome and Internet Explorer started shipping EME, almost no one switched browser. When Snowden's revelations came out, almos…

Philosophy isn't just speech, it's deed. This, right now, is a deed.

They should put as much energy into propagating their ideas as into redesigning the interface to look like a Chrome knockoff. Cultivate some dial-a-pundits that TV people can count on for an opinion about the Internet. Have a thinktank. Aggressively fundraise. Expanding the userbase is the answer, not chasing corporate behemoths.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#192

Post by erichurkman »

andreyf wrote: post #51
isomorphic wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I run my browsers without Flash in order to avoid Adobe's exploit-du-jour crapware. This means, for example, that I don't run Chrome. If this binary blob from Adobe isn't presented with a similar UI as regular "plugins" (that the user can disable or uninstall), then I will look into writing an extension to disable it, or perhaps rely on a Firefox fork to give me a Flash-lite(tm) free browser.

You might want to reconsider. Chrome sandboxes the Flash runtime [1], meaning a 0-day exploit in Flash alone doesn't get an attacker access to your machine. 1. http://thenextweb.com/google/2012/11/13/google-declares-flas...

That, of course, does not save you from other problems with Flash and the way developers have (ab)used it. Crappy/useless widgets on screen that serve only to eat your CPU and batteries, including banner ads and the like.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#193

Post by ewzimm »

azakai wrote: post #125
IgorPartola wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's more important Mozilla or the web? This is a case where Mozilla thinks that by sticking around they can do more good than by killing this particular attack on the free web. Can we justify this completely? IMHO, no. Perhaps the whole existence of Mozilla was leading up to this point where it could commit ritualistic suicide and take this DRM proposal with it. Of course nobody at Mozilla will see it that way. Or…

> This is a case where Mozilla thinks that by sticking around they can do more good than by killing this particular attack on the free web. How can Mozilla kill it? It simply doesn't have the power, faced with Google, Microsoft and Apple implementing EME. Yes, Mozilla could have taken a pure, principled stance and avoided EME. Perhaps some thoughtful people would use Firefox for that reason. But those same thoughtful…

This is the truth. There has been no effective movement against DRM. The EFF is more guilty than Mozilla in this case because fighting DRM is a core function of the EFF's, while adapting to established web standards is Mozilla's primary function.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#195

Post by spoiler »

walden42 wrote: post #132
suprgeek wrote: post #9

Mozilla had to be dragged into this acceptance kicking and screaming (metaphorically). They were faced with a hard choice, Not implement EME (HTML5 DRM) and risk users moving to other browsers (user loss) or implement EME and risk looking like they are contradicting their core mission (trust loss). They figured a little loss of trust is worth keeping most of the users on the Mozilla platform - which in my view is the…

Can't addons be used to supplement the missing features?

I prefer the sound of DRM over addons/plugins/applets/whatnot, to be honest.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#196

Post by neura »

stormbrew wrote: post #8
EduardoBautista wrote: post #2

How about just ignore the websites that implement DRM and let the free market decide if those websites will survive? People treat DRM as if it was going to turn us into North Korea when it comes to internet access.

If you could make the choice of what content to watch and what to watch it with independently, this could be said to be a free market decision. As is, my decision to support or not support DRM dictates the content I can watch. That for most people the content is more important gives the false signal that people are choosing DRM (which, in reality, pretty much nobody would). That's not a functional free market. There…

This is absolutely still a free market. You want the content, you're going to make a choice in what you're willing to do for that content. If it requires you to pay for it or it requires you to install a plugin or it requires you to use a browser that supports the streaming of it, those are all choices you can make. That's the idea behind a free market.

Maybe you should look up the definition of "free market economy". If DRM is part of the price of viewing the content, that's part of the economy. Non-DRM protected content is still available, in the same market, but is generally less sought after in the same way that people are usually much less interested (if at all) in content that does not have a price or is completely free. If something has value, the creator usually wants to receive that value for their work.

TL;DR: This is exactly a free market economy. Anybody can provide content. There is no price fixing. Access to the content is not government controlled. Etc. Etc. The only thing standing between you and the content you want is what the creator/owner of that content wishes to receive from you in exchange for the content, be it money, DRM embedded in the delivery tools, etc.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#197

Post by User9821 »

13throwaway wrote: post #46

If all major browsers support eme, every website will use it. Say goodbye to youtube-dl. Maybe next year eme will be updated to "protect" html. Soon the entire web may be a closed system. It doesn't matter what the FCC decides on Friday, today is the day the web dies, at mozilla's hands. There is always a choice mozilla, please make the right one.

Mozilla doesn't have a choice. Let's say Firefox has 30% of users. The argument is that sites will not use DRM, because they'll be losing revenue from 30% of their users, and therefore Mozilla saves the day.

But, what happens if Google says they'll accept that challenge, and they're willing to lose 30% of revenue from something like YouTube in the short term. They implement DRM on YouTube, and Firefox users can no longer watch videos. What happens? Firefox users start converting over. Where to? Chrome, which falls into Google's best interest. Now, that 30% loss keeps getting smaller and smaller, and Chrome users start increasing. Fast forward a year, and Firefox only has 10% of the users. This continues to shrink until Firefox dies.

Sadly, this is what happens when we give Google and Facebook too much power, and the ability to run the internet. It's our fault for giving them that position, and not developing or supporting alternatives. If you want to fight back, you need to give Mozilla a better position to stand. Sites like Wikipedia, Imgur, etc, need to run banners for browsers that support DRM, and block users, or encourage them to switch to a DRM free browser, like Firefox. Take the wind out of their sails, before they try to do the same to us.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#198

Post by thrillgore »

aestetix wrote: post #168

I am curious whether this would have happened if Eich were still the CEO.

Despite his failings at leadership I will admit, Eich was pretty damn adamant against EME. If he was still at Mozilla he could have had led a lot of pushback at the W3C.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#199

Post by wolfgke »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #56
viraptor wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a native and supported way to watch Netflix on Linux? No. So it does make the experience worse (it's one of the biggest missing components, not implying the only one).

How is this question symptomatic of anything but a tool fetish? Watch the movies, not the OS.

Give me the specs of the DRM system so that I can implement a tool for my OS to be able to watch the movies.

Re: Can This Web Be Saved? Mozilla Accepts DRM, and We All Lose

#200

Post by tn13 »

The article is written as if Mozilla is making a mistake. I think Mozilla's stand is perfectly reasonable and pragmatic. Mozilla must adhere to all the web standards.

I think the war for an open web was lost when EME became W3C standard. We should have fought it at that time.

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