London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber • Hacker News Board

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#81

Post by sjtgraham » Thu, May 08, 2014, 2:05 PM UTC

msy wrote: post #72

buro9 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any advances that Uber makes will benefit all mini-cab companies and most importantly, passengers. Except for all of the disabled ones, the wheelchair users, the ones who only wish to travel a very short distance and are unable to do so alone (the pregnant, mothers with pushchairs, the extremely inebriated, elderly, injured, etc). The monopoly and some privileges (bus lane access, pick up fares anywhere) is granted…

Black cabs have no obligation to pick up fares and will regularly refuse to take trips that they feel are inconvenient or they think will likely result in a return journey without a fare, even after you're in the cab. Want to go south and it's near the end of the driver's shift and he lives north? Back to waiting for you. This is in comparison to the NYC system where once you're in the cab, they're obligated to take…

The law stipulates a Hackney Carriage, once hailed, must accept any fare within the Metropolitan Police Area. If refused one should report it to the Public Carriage Office. It might not sound like it is worth it, but the PCO takes trade regulation very seriously and it will have implications for the driver, especially after repeat complaints.

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#82

Post by viraptor » Thu, May 08, 2014, 2:05 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #74

viraptor wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google maps already integrates with Uber. If they managed to get such connection, I'm not sure why a bigger black cab company operating in large cities couldn't get an agreement to include taxi/bus lanes on a separate app. Can't imagine Uber forced Google to cooperate with them...

Isn't Google -- through Google Ventures -- a significant investor in Uber? That kind of may give them a different set of considerations than "a bigger black cab company" would have.

Sure and I think we're in agreement - Google proved it will do something nice for a taxi company if they profit from it. It's just a very specific kind of profit in this case.

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#83

Post by buro9 » Thu, May 08, 2014, 2:05 PM UTC

msy wrote: post #72

buro9 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any advances that Uber makes will benefit all mini-cab companies and most importantly, passengers. Except for all of the disabled ones, the wheelchair users, the ones who only wish to travel a very short distance and are unable to do so alone (the pregnant, mothers with pushchairs, the extremely inebriated, elderly, injured, etc). The monopoly and some privileges (bus lane access, pick up fares anywhere) is granted…

Black cabs have no obligation to pick up fares and will regularly refuse to take trips that they feel are inconvenient or they think will likely result in a return journey without a fare, even after you're in the cab. Want to go south and it's near the end of the driver's shift and he lives north? Back to waiting for you. This is in comparison to the NYC system where once you're in the cab, they're obligated to take…

> Black cabs have no obligation to pick up fares

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/16-17/33/section/7

Legislation that obligates the driver to drive up to 6 miles, or for 1 hour, providing the driver has no reasonable excuse.

Later challenged by Hunt v Morgan 1948, in which it was clarified that if the taxi is on a taxi rank they have no right of refusal, and if the taxi is stopped they have little right of refusal. If the taxi is in motion then the driver may not have seen you, it may not be safe to stop, etc and the driver may have a reasonable excuse.

In nearly all cases, if a driver has stopped for you and you are travelling less than 6 miles, the driver has no reasonable excuse and is obligated.

Other parts of the legislation oblige the driver to help those who need such assistance (accessibility stuff).

PS: And English law loves the word "reasonable".

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#84

Post by prof_hobart » Thu, May 08, 2014, 2:10 PM UTC

jgrahamc wrote: post #52

casca wrote: post #22

The Black Cabs in London have a long-standing monopoly on picking people up on the street and providing a metered journey. This is mandated by law. To become a black cab (not always black in colour) driver, it is necessary to take an advanced test called The Knowledge where you are expected to know every London street and landmark along with best routes based on random street closures. It takes about 3 years to study…

One of the key benefits of The Knowledge is that I can jump in a black cab in London and say "Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons" and have a driver who can instantly decide which way to go... 1. Without asking for any clarification 2. Without typing a bunch of stuff into a GPS device 3. And with knowledge of time/space specific optimizations Yes, black cabs are not cheap. You are getting a very specific service for…

What if you don't want to pay for that specific service? I got a taxi home (not in London) last week and the taxi driver used his sat nav to route me home. It didn't bother me in the slightest.

Pretty much all I ask for in a taxi is get me from where I am to where I want to go, as quickly, cheaply and safely as possible. I'm not against people being licenced (that comes into the "safely" bit of my requirements), but if they can achieve the "quickly" bit just as easily with a free app on their smartphone as they could with 3 years worth of studying, allowing them to provide the service more cheaply, then I'm all for it.

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#85

Post by M2Ys4U » Thu, May 08, 2014, 2:11 PM UTC

rmc wrote: post #46

brianlweiner wrote: post #3

Ridiculous behavior. I'm glad the black taxis seem to have their customer's well-being at heart. "Uber, funded by Google, Goldman Sachs and others, has a stated aim of challenging legislation that is not compatible with its business model," said Mr McNamara. "This is not some philanthropic friendly society, it's an American monster that has no qualms about breaching any and all laws in the pursuit of profit, most of…

They're probably talking about the Google not having it's corporate offices in the UK. The UK is a massive tax haven anyway, with weird little sub-national groups like the Channel Islands and Isle of Mann. edit : Yes I'm aware the Channel Islands & Isle of Mann aren't part of the UK, but they are 'British' and massive tax havens, sometimes with one company director per inhabitant.

The Channel Islands and the Isle of Mann are Crown Dependencies[0] and aren't part of the United Kingdom, nor are they part of the European Union (although their citizens are also British citizens and they are part of the EU customs area)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_dependencies

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#86

Post by Dylan16807 » Thu, May 08, 2014, 2:11 PM UTC

jgrahamc wrote: post #52

casca wrote: post #22

The Black Cabs in London have a long-standing monopoly on picking people up on the street and providing a metered journey. This is mandated by law. To become a black cab (not always black in colour) driver, it is necessary to take an advanced test called The Knowledge where you are expected to know every London street and landmark along with best routes based on random street closures. It takes about 3 years to study…

One of the key benefits of The Knowledge is that I can jump in a black cab in London and say "Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons" and have a driver who can instantly decide which way to go... 1. Without asking for any clarification 2. Without typing a bunch of stuff into a GPS device 3. And with knowledge of time/space specific optimizations Yes, black cabs are not cheap. You are getting a very specific service for…

>You are getting a very specific service

So are you in favor of that very specific service being a monopoly or not?

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#87

Post by nodata » Thu, May 08, 2014, 2:11 PM UTC

snitko wrote: post #71

robryan wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To what end? Anyone with a car can start their own taxi service? I don't think it is in the public's interest to make taxi driving unprofitable which is what would likely happen without regulation and licensing.

Where I live anyone can be a cab. You raise your hand on any street any time of day and some car will stop. As a result, prices are normally 3 times lower compared to the US. You negotiate the price with drivers beforehand and you don't have to tip them because all of the money go directly into the driver's pocket. I've never heard anyone complain about this system. Now tell me how is this a bad idea?

Your argument is that cheapest must be best?

Try safety of the passenger, upkeep of the vehicle, all the other reasons mentioned elsewhere on this page...

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#88

Post by viraptor » Thu, May 08, 2014, 2:11 PM UTC

cjrp wrote: post #61

bananas wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is pretty good at that too and knows what the traffic is before you get there. It's impressive but no more impressive than navigating a 4 million line software product intuitively...

Google isn't (yet) quite as good at predicting traffic though. For example, a cabby would know that if a Chelsea game's finishing at 5pm, he should avoid Stamford Bridge.

Thanks, that's a great example of where the real-time data collection is not as good as the local knowledge! Unfortunately that depends on whether the driver cares about football (or similar events in the city). I hope that waze/google/other services will start including information like that in the future.

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#89

Post by zimpenfish » Thu, May 08, 2014, 2:11 PM UTC

jgrahamc wrote: post #52

casca wrote: post #22

The Black Cabs in London have a long-standing monopoly on picking people up on the street and providing a metered journey. This is mandated by law. To become a black cab (not always black in colour) driver, it is necessary to take an advanced test called The Knowledge where you are expected to know every London street and landmark along with best routes based on random street closures. It takes about 3 years to study…

One of the key benefits of The Knowledge is that I can jump in a black cab in London and say "Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons" and have a driver who can instantly decide which way to go... 1. Without asking for any clarification 2. Without typing a bunch of stuff into a GPS device 3. And with knowledge of time/space specific optimizations Yes, black cabs are not cheap. You are getting a very specific service for…

As a singular anecdotal counterpoint, I've yet to get in a cab and say e.g. "Greenwich" or "Blackheath" and have those three points happen. I've had worse though - I've got a cab from Lewisham Station to Maze Hill and had to direct them most of the way ("left, right up the hill, turn right, turn left, stop").

Re: London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

#90

Post by zimpenfish » Thu, May 08, 2014, 2:14 PM UTC

sjtgraham wrote: post #81

msy wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black cabs have no obligation to pick up fares and will regularly refuse to take trips that they feel are inconvenient or they think will likely result in a return journey without a fare, even after you're in the cab. Want to go south and it's near the end of the driver's shift and he lives north? Back to waiting for you. This is in comparison to the NYC system where once you're in the cab, they're obligated to take…

The law stipulates a Hackney Carriage, once hailed, must accept any fare within the Metropolitan Police Area. If refused one should report it to the Public Carriage Office. It might not sound like it is worth it, but the PCO takes trade regulation very seriously and it will have implications for the driver, especially after repeat complaints.

Someone should tell them that because they really don't accept any fare, especially at night, and especially south of the river.

But at least now I know what to quote when I'm complaining about them, ta.