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It's Different for Girls

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Re: It's Different for Girls

#291
post #109
post #6

I think the big takeaway here, not just for women but for anyone in the workplace who feels uncomfortable with or offended by something someone else has said, is to consider the intent. Sometimes somebody says something offensive, and they don't even know they're being offensive. And in those cases, you can take them aside, explain to them why it's offended you, and hopefully they'll say, "Oh, dreadfully sorry, I did…

That is not the big takeaway. The big takeaway is that straight white men's privilege gives them an advantage over everybody else since they face fewer obstacles such as having their hands forced onto a penis while closing a business deal.

Men live substantially shorter than women, men commit vastly more suicides, men are punished substantially harder than women in courts of law. Men are drafted to armies. Men get their children stolen in divorce cases. Men work vastly harder on average. Consequently men get paid much worse on average for the same amount of work than women. Men pay the majority of taxes, women get the majority of social services. Men are the majority of homeless. Almost all who live in forced celibacy (a form of forced sexuality) are male. Male homosexuality is vastly harder punished than female homosexuality.

It is objectively much harder being male than being female.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#292
post #189

I'm a woman who is new to hacker news. I've been told I have to be on this thing if I ever want to apply for YC. I don't know if I'll ever do that but I don't want to ruin that opportunity. I've been reading through all these comments and a lot of them make me sick to my stomach. Articles that surround women in the work force interest me because my startup is in this space, but at what cost of my sanity do I have to…

As a HNer of two years, I'd say to take all comments (not just those that are racist or sexist) with a grain of salt is the best thing to do. The Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory [0] applies here as much as anyone else, and many HN comments (not excluding those upvoted to the top) are downright mean, idiotic, or incorrect.

Looking at my comment history, I have several points from random, off-the-cuff observations and negative two points from well-thought-out comments that are related to programming. That's HN for you. Of course, there are also fascinating, interesting, and relevant comments posted all the time, or I'd never visit HN.

Also, tptacek's comment is very correct. Stories like these seem to light HN on fire. Just look at the front page right now - this story has 100 points more than its closest competitor, and almost as many comments.

[0] http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

Re: It's Different for Girls

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I think there's something fundamentally different about someone saying or doing something in ignorance -- especially if they appear contrite once they realize how it's made others feel -- and someone doing it purposefully, like the creep in the restaurant in Heidi's story. Sure, agreed, and this is explicitly recognized by the US legal system (i.e. involuntary manslaughter vs. voluntary manslaughter/murder). Th…

> That said, good intentions don't lessen impact on victims. I fundamentally disagree with you on this, but I've noticed that people seem very divided on this issue. Personally, if I'm offended by something and I learn that it was a fundamental misunderstanding and no harm was intended, then the anger/hurt/whatever emotion just goes away naturally, without me having to even consciously think about it or calm myself d…

On a personal and emotional level, I agree with you: once I learn it's a misunderstanding and no harm was intended, I often stop feeling angry.

Even if I'm no longer angry per se some hard feelings may remain. I have dealt with men & women from very conservative backgrounds who honestly and with great love believe I should not do what I do for a living, because it involves public speaking and evaluation of some men, which they believe violates 1 Timothy 2:12. I disagree and I need to remain steeled against the unpleasantness this brings up, even if we are friendly -- it's in this sense that I mean "hard" feelings.

And then I do agree entirely that good intentions don't lessen impacts on victims. The folks who don't want me to teach have good intentions, measured one way, and that's not really relevant. The folks who tell girls not to take AP calc because it's too hard and they won't need it have ~good intentions, but that's irrelevant. The folks who think I'll naturally be nurturing and try to give me some cuddly job with young children have good intentions but they're scarring me and the kids for life. The folks who pass over a woman for a promotion because they think she should focus on her family have good intentions, but she's out the cash and the accrued interest and career advancement for the rest of her life.

You're thinking about how we deal emotionally with good intentions, while the above poster is thinking about the money that's gone, the job that disappeared, the promotion that didn't happen, the mortgage whose interest rate was 2 percentage points higher.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"and she used to tell me lots of stories like this about places she had worked at previously. Vice presidents calling her to their room and offering her promotions if only she would give them weekly blowjobs, prospective customers turning away from million-dollar deals at the last minute after she refused to sleep with them," When you can use your mobile as a universal recording device and you carry it everywhere I f…

>Is it that hard to download a recording app, like the aclu police recording app, and have the most water tight sexual harassment suit ever? So you're suggesting the solution to sexual harassment is for women to go deeper into an already uncomfortable situation and gather evidence for the 'nuclear option' that can potentially ruin the careers of both parties? That's complete nonsense. Nobody wants to hire somebody th…

If someone, anyone, asked me to suck their dick or clit, yes, I would go for the nuclear option. You have to be a really well beaten down cubicle slave to think that someone trying to own your body outright like that isn't grounds for destroying their life.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#295

I have an ex-coworker who is a really attractive girl, and she used to tell me lots of stories like this about places she had worked at previously. Vice presidents calling her to their room and offering her promotions if only she would give them weekly blowjobs, prospective customers turning away from million-dollar deals at the last minute after she refused to sleep with them, etc. The really sad thing about is that…

There's a counter-point to this that is likely to be unpopular, but it's deeply rooted in human biology and isn't going to go away any time soon. Attractive young women may have difficulty getting people to take them seriously, and have to deal with things like frequent unwanted sexual advances, but they have no trouble getting laid . Attractive young women have easy, practically unlimited access to sex (if they so d…

Unsurprisingly, this comes at a cost.

Seriously, no. Don't do this. Don't do "being attractive to men unsurprising comes at the cost of sexual assault." Don't do "not having sex when you want to is as bad as being forced to have sex when you don't want to." Don't do "attractive young women are the only women worth having sex with." Don't go for the mathematical impossibility that women get to have more sex than men. Don't go for "reporting sexual assault is a sympathetic experience with no negative consequences," when women are still basically put on trial for it.

In all sincerity, if you don't get why you are shamed and belittled when you complain about unfairness with respect to women, here's the key to make sense of it: you live in a caste system, and you are the higher caste. Women were literally second-class citizens under the law until very recently (assuming they no longer are in your country), and a society doesn't shake that off overnight. Men have real problems, but you can't talk sensibly about them until you get how stacked the deck is to start with. (And, honestly, a thread about a woman who was trying to cut a quarter-million dollar deal when the man on the other side put her hand in his pants? That's a thread that doesn't need to be about men's problems.)

Re: It's Different for Girls

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Street harassment is another thing like that. E.g., I naively assumed that my girlfriend's experience going out and running alone was exactly like my experience when I was with her. Until she started telling me about the frequent whistles, comments, and sexual propositions she would receive. It just didn't happen when I'm around, because people who are jerks and abusers are, unsurprisingly, very crafty in doing…

I think it's even worse than being 'crafty', they're actually trying to show you respect under the idea that because you're with her you have a claim on her and they're deferring to that. Which is incredibly creepy and offensive.

Not really, they just want to avoid a fight. Under sexist rules, a man accompanying a woman is her "protector". If someone makes rude sexual remarks to her, it's also insulting to him because it implies that he's too weak to do anything about it. That's a provocation to respond with violence to affirm his manhood.

It's the same logic behind insulting a man by calling his mother a whore. Why should he be insulted by an insult to his mother? Because a real man is supposed to defend the honor of the women in his family.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#297

I have an ex-coworker who is a really attractive girl, and she used to tell me lots of stories like this about places she had worked at previously. Vice presidents calling her to their room and offering her promotions if only she would give them weekly blowjobs, prospective customers turning away from million-dollar deals at the last minute after she refused to sleep with them, etc. The really sad thing about is that…

Are you in all seriousness saying that attractive women have it hard? You are suffering form a massive case of what modern social though terms "privilege blindness". (And, as an aside, probably have the hots for that girl als well.) Nobody on this plane is more privileged than attractive girls. They don't even have to work if they don't want to. In your delusion, you also conveniently ignore that (within certain limi…

> The reason women complain about being 'discriminated' is because it works so well for them

Probably the most bullshit thing I will have read this month.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#298
I'm old now, but when I was a younger man, I was something to look at. I got sexual come-ons and innuendos by female and gay male coworkers all the time. It's not a "girl thing", it's an "I'm attractive thing". It goes away.

Guys also like to make dick jokes. Because dick jokes are funny. See Louis CK net worth. And guys build rapport by being funny. I showed a guy at work my Chromecast. "It's smaller than I thought". "That's what she said", I replied. Laughs by all genders.

Accept dick jokes. Punish actual harrassment. Don't think it only happens to women.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#299

I have an ex-coworker who is a really attractive girl, and she used to tell me lots of stories like this about places she had worked at previously. Vice presidents calling her to their room and offering her promotions if only she would give them weekly blowjobs, prospective customers turning away from million-dollar deals at the last minute after she refused to sleep with them, etc. The really sad thing about is that…

Are you in all seriousness saying that attractive women have it hard? You are suffering form a massive case of what modern social though terms "privilege blindness". (And, as an aside, probably have the hots for that girl als well.) Nobody on this plane is more privileged than attractive girls. They don't even have to work if they don't want to. In your delusion, you also conveniently ignore that (within certain limi…

Without commenting on the first two paragraphs, your last paragraph makes it sounds more malicious than reality probably is. It's entirely possible that attractive women got BOTH privilege and harassment.
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