It's Different for Girls • Hacker News Board

Re: It's Different for Girls

#41

Post by abracar » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:03 PM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #12

jawns wrote: post #6

I think the big takeaway here, not just for women but for anyone in the workplace who feels uncomfortable with or offended by something someone else has said, is to consider the intent. Sometimes somebody says something offensive, and they don't even know they're being offensive. And in those cases, you can take them aside, explain to them why it's offended you, and hopefully they'll say, "Oh, dreadfully sorry, I did…

And then you have people like me who consider trolling to be the single best way of bonding with people. I don't think I could work with a person I can't say offensive things to and who doesn't say offensive things back. Maybe I'm just too European, I don't know.

Come on, I'm European too and that's not an excuse for hurting people's feelings or worse.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#42

Post by dang » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:03 PM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #34

wakaflaka wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I think you are just socially inept.

You'd be surprised by how deep a connection you can form with somebody through ribbing.

Would you please stop posting off-topic, low-substance comments to this thread?

Re: It's Different for Girls

#43

Post by timsally » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:03 PM UTC

jawns wrote: post #6

I think the big takeaway here, not just for women but for anyone in the workplace who feels uncomfortable with or offended by something someone else has said, is to consider the intent. Sometimes somebody says something offensive, and they don't even know they're being offensive. And in those cases, you can take them aside, explain to them why it's offended you, and hopefully they'll say, "Oh, dreadfully sorry, I did…

> But I think there's something fundamentally different about someone saying or doing something in ignorance -- especially if they appear contrite once they realize how it's made others feel -- and someone doing it purposefully, like the creep in the restaurant in Heidi's story.

Sure, agreed, and this is explicitly recognized by the US legal system (i.e. involuntary manslaughter vs. voluntary manslaughter/murder). That said, good intentions don't lessen impact on victims. Intention sometimes plays a role is determining what punishment is appropriate for the person who did the offensive/criminal act, but that's little consolation to those who are routinely targets of said acts. You're dead, whether the person that killed you meant to kill you or not. Something important to keep in mind in the context of harassment and conduct in the workplace.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#44

Post by gfodor » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:04 PM UTC

britta wrote: post #9

news_to_me wrote: post #5

Lack of diversity in the tech industry truly saddens me. I love technology, and I want to encourage everyone else to discover how magical it is. It's a tragedy that the industry can be so hostile to some, for apparently no reason. But as a white male, I feel powerless to do anything. I can't speak for women, or for other races, or really for anyone else. I want to help fix this, but where do I begin?

You can educate yourself and others! There are lots of resources for learning how to do more, including speaking up to other men and putting some money toward supporting people who are making a difference. Here's an article with a bunch of options ("What Can Men Do? Men working with other men against patriarchy in technology"): https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0 - and here's an allies training worksh…

Sorry, but I find Shanley's approach to framing this issue completely the opposite of the OP here. The OP sees the good in good men and lifts them up. The closing point about the joke she shared with her colleagues underlines it: there are people who are unable to laugh off a "dick in your hand" joke regardless of context and who it comes from. Not because of a lack of sense of humor, but because any such joke will be framed as oppressive and sexist due to the gender of the person it comes from.

Shanley sees all men as de facto oppressors (of varying degrees) due to their gender and the existence of the patriarchy. (Don't believe me? Look at her point: "Men need to work with each other on sexism. It is not okay to lean on the class of people you oppress to solve your system or your discomfort with it.".) This is not a productive avenue for making progress IMHO.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#45

Post by calibraxis » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:04 PM UTC

news_to_me wrote: post #5

Lack of diversity in the tech industry truly saddens me. I love technology, and I want to encourage everyone else to discover how magical it is. It's a tragedy that the industry can be so hostile to some, for apparently no reason. But as a white male, I feel powerless to do anything. I can't speak for women, or for other races, or really for anyone else. I want to help fix this, but where do I begin?

You can amplify their voices and efforts. For example, depending on your power, you can take Shanley's articles like this (https://medium.com/about-work/514a6edcce2c) and implement them. Or you can disclose your salary. Or install a simple code of conduct.

Society stamped the male designation on my forehead, and feel like there's no end of wonderful things I do that have an immediate impact. Which improve people's dignity and quality of life. Do I attack patriarchy? Good. Do I attack the boss's ability to extract unconscionable hours, dignity and money from his wage-slaves? Good.

But you know that movie Avatar, which portrays the white male hero "leading" an army of poor blue savages? Avoid such corrosive social nonsense, and you'll spend a lot less energy. Simply assist and amplify the efforts of others, share literature which isn't afraid to be radical, and you'll go far.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#46

Post by jdp23 » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:06 PM UTC

britta wrote: post #9

news_to_me wrote: post #5

Lack of diversity in the tech industry truly saddens me. I love technology, and I want to encourage everyone else to discover how magical it is. It's a tragedy that the industry can be so hostile to some, for apparently no reason. But as a white male, I feel powerless to do anything. I can't speak for women, or for other races, or really for anyone else. I want to help fix this, but where do I begin?

You can educate yourself and others! There are lots of resources for learning how to do more, including speaking up to other men and putting some money toward supporting people who are making a difference. Here's an article with a bunch of options ("What Can Men Do? Men working with other men against patriarchy in technology"): https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0 - and here's an allies training worksh…

britt's post is a substantive answer to 'news_to_me's question, with links off to useful resources.

What does it say about the HN community that it was downvoted?

[And by the way, this is an example of the 'speaking up' that britta mentioned. Guys, when you see this kind of hostile-to-women behavior on HN, call it out.]

Re: It's Different for Girls

#47

Post by taiki » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:06 PM UTC

jawns wrote: post #6

I think the big takeaway here, not just for women but for anyone in the workplace who feels uncomfortable with or offended by something someone else has said, is to consider the intent. Sometimes somebody says something offensive, and they don't even know they're being offensive. And in those cases, you can take them aside, explain to them why it's offended you, and hopefully they'll say, "Oh, dreadfully sorry, I did…

I really REALLY hope that no one is ignorant to the fact that tricking people to touching their penis is wrong.

I'm REALLY really REALLY hoping.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#48

Post by jacquesm » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:07 PM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #27

skannamalai wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a person of color? Are you a woman? Are you gay? Are you trans? Are you disabled? Not trolling, genuinely curious. Edit: I can't reply to the children (might be my karma game) and so I'll reply here. The linked article is about specifically about power and privilege, and how being a woman in the tech business puts you at a severe disadvantage in your job, in your community of choice. The reason why I ask is j…

Why does that matter? Why would you say offensive things about people's physical characteristics and things that aren't their choice? That's just intelectualy lazy and pretty damn mean. I find that people give you plenty of opportunities to poke fun at them without being lazy about it. edit: The general idea is to only make fun of things people are completely secure and confident about, otherwise you're not being fun…

> The general idea is to only make fun of things people are completely secure and confident about

How do you know that's the case though?

Re: It's Different for Girls

#49

Post by Crito » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:08 PM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #27

skannamalai wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a person of color? Are you a woman? Are you gay? Are you trans? Are you disabled? Not trolling, genuinely curious. Edit: I can't reply to the children (might be my karma game) and so I'll reply here. The linked article is about specifically about power and privilege, and how being a woman in the tech business puts you at a severe disadvantage in your job, in your community of choice. The reason why I ask is j…

Why does that matter? Why would you say offensive things about people's physical characteristics and things that aren't their choice? That's just intelectualy lazy and pretty damn mean. I find that people give you plenty of opportunities to poke fun at them without being lazy about it. edit: The general idea is to only make fun of things people are completely secure and confident about, otherwise you're not being fun…

So perhaps like ribbing people in a tongue-in-cheek fashion for using the "wrong" text editor?

I think that sort of thing is fine and generally accepted, provided you don't become hurtful or vicious with it.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#50

Post by aaronem » Fri, May 02, 2014, 9:08 PM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #18

cobrausn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You probably misread the previous statement - it says placing her hand in his pants... EDIT: Dear downvoters: This statement is a favor to the guy above me, who probably thought the statement was referring to Al Bundy like behavior of watching TV with hand in pants. EDIT 2: Removing some needless name-calling. Was just annoyed.

Yup, my bad. Totally read that as him placing his hand in his pants. As in, only one person involved.

Probably not in a restaurant, though.

Dragging the subthread back on topic, while I don't doubt Ms. Roizen or anyone else who describes having encountered such abhorrent behavior, it amazes me every time I hear about it, and not so much because it's sexual assault as because I have such a hard time believing any man, indeed anyone of any sex or gender, could be so incredibly déclassé.

I don't know -- maybe it's because I'm gay, or because I gravitate toward the company of people who deport themselves with something which at least vaguely resembles good taste, or I don't know what all, but honestly? Who actually does something like that? Who can even contemplate doing something like that without shriveling in well-deserved shame?