It's Different for Girls • Hacker News Board

Re: It's Different for Girls

#211

Post by joe_the_user » Sat, May 03, 2014, 12:05 AM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #199

beaner wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't understand why we don't start naming and shaming. It's a lot easier to not see as a real problem when it's always stories of nameless men in unspecified locations and situations. And the kinds people who are prone to this behavior are being given a free pass, only to do it again later.

Shaming usually makes people either dig their heels in more and justify their behavior, or it drives the behavior underground where they won't get caught for it. Neither is a desirable result. I think that what Heidi did is basically perfect - she's educating people that this does go on, it does have an effect on the women who are subjected to it, and they shouldn't have to put up with it. But she's doing it in a neu…

Naming and shaming is hard for anyone who has to have a continue relationship of even a distant sort with a guy and it is hard to prove a lot of accusations. So I wouldn't pressure anyone to be the namer-and-shamer.

But if you could get over those hurdles, it should happen, regardless of those shamed "digging in". Seriously, this kind of behavior seems much more authentically shameful than a lot of illegal activities carrying multi-year sentences. Sorry but knowing that inappropriate behavior has hard consequences works as a deterrent, maybe not for the first guy confronted but for the tenth guy, who at that point knows they just better not do that.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#212

Post by streptomycin » Sat, May 03, 2014, 12:07 AM UTC

selmnoo wrote: post #142

evilduck wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think another important thing to consider is that not everyone who takes offense to another's use of language is always a victim, but they'll gladly play the role of victim if we allow it. Sometimes people are actively looking to be offended. Take this one for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc1zGRUPztc

> Sometimes people are actively looking to be offended. Take this one for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc1zGRUPztc That reminds me of a conversation I had nearly a decade ago with a black (African immigrant) friend. I don't remember the details, but basically he said that he was annoyed that the words "dark" and "black" had negative connotations. I knew him well enough to know that he wasn't trolling, and…

Relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE84dHl5Nr0

Re: It's Different for Girls

#213

Post by joe_the_user » Sat, May 03, 2014, 12:11 AM UTC

cinquemb wrote: post #133

enraged_camel wrote: post #117

I have an ex-coworker who is a really attractive girl, and she used to tell me lots of stories like this about places she had worked at previously. Vice presidents calling her to their room and offering her promotions if only she would give them weekly blowjobs, prospective customers turning away from million-dollar deals at the last minute after she refused to sleep with them, etc. The really sad thing about is that…

> The really sad thing about is that the vast majority of guys I talk to about this topic are simply not aware that women, especially attractive women, go through stuff like this all the time. So when they hear women complaining about discrimination, harassment, glass ceilings, and so on, they think those women are simply "being bitchy." Which simply perpetuates and intensifies the status quo. Assuming not all (attra…

It could be Martian's propositioning some being from Alpha Centauri system.

I didn't downvote you, though I was tempted.

I think what's happening people are taking offense at exactly your detached tone, where what they're looking for is a human response.

Involved Person: Oh my god, did you see that guy who was just shot.

Disengaged person: Yeah, the way the blood spurted out of his head was fascinating, I've cut up with an equation for the arc it took.

You see how an involved person can take offense at someone's disengagement?

Re: It's Different for Girls

#214

Post by gfodor » Sat, May 03, 2014, 12:11 AM UTC

jordo37 wrote: post #73

gfodor wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but I find Shanley's approach to framing this issue completely the opposite of the OP here. The OP sees the good in good men and lifts them up. The closing point about the joke she shared with her colleagues underlines it: there are people who are unable to laugh off a "dick in your hand" joke regardless of context and who it comes from. Not because of a lack of sense of humor, but because any such joke will b…

1) that joke was sexist, and Brad Feld's follow up after she called him out was more sexist. She may have a relationship with Brad which supersedes the joke itself and that makes it okay in the narrow context of their relationship, but that was a sexist joke. 2) I don't view men as oppressors, but I do think we as men have privilege and that is why we need to work with each other on the issue of sexism. I do not find…

Why do you get to define if a comment is sexist, and not the people who made and, more importantly heard, said comment? Herein lies the problem, people are all too willing to label language they dislike as 'sexist', regardless of the intent behind it or even the reaction to it by those who it was intended for. Language is a communication tool and a means to an end, not an end in itself, and to try to pin labels on it as an end in itself without context of what it was trying to accomplish and the effect it had on the listener seems backwards to me. The unfortunate effect here is that by focusing so much on "problematic" language we end up diluting the communication value of language itself, where the words someone chooses have negative consequences because they have been defined to do so by others, even if previously they would not have. Sometimes a dick joke is just a dick joke, and it's funny and people should laugh. It's not yet another example of the patriarchy eroding away a woman's agency.

I posted above my issues with Shanley's language, in general I am strongly against the tumblr-ization of language for a number of reasons.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#215

Post by rando289 » Sat, May 03, 2014, 12:11 AM UTC

I like the article, but I must point out this one thing I don't want it to perpetuate.

“Every time I see the word ‘Girl’ used in scenarios that are supposed to empower women, it really grates on me,” http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/01/30/girls-lad...

It bothers me too.

"A girl is any female human from birth through childhood and adolescence to attainment of adulthood when she becomes a woman." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girl

Re: It's Different for Girls

#216

Post by rando289 » Sat, May 03, 2014, 12:14 AM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #117

I have an ex-coworker who is a really attractive girl, and she used to tell me lots of stories like this about places she had worked at previously. Vice presidents calling her to their room and offering her promotions if only she would give them weekly blowjobs, prospective customers turning away from million-dollar deals at the last minute after she refused to sleep with them, etc. The really sad thing about is that…

“Every time I see the word ‘Girl’ used in scenarios that are supposed to empower women, it really grates on me,” http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/01/30/girls-lad...

It bothers me too. The article is otherwise great.

google, define: girl "1. a female child. 2. a young or relatively young woman."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girl: "A girl is any female human from birth through childhood and adolescence to attainment of adulthood when she becomes a woman."

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/girl: "a : a female child from birth to adulthood

...

d : sometimes offensive : a single or married woman of any age"

In this case, it seems like she is trying to sound cute or informal while unwittingly reinforcing the perception of women as child-like.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#217

Post by kansface » Sat, May 03, 2014, 12:14 AM UTC

orionblastar wrote: post #181

It is the same for men in some situations. When I worked my male bosses asked me to give them a blowjob in exchange for a promotion or drop my pants and be sodomized instead. I refused and was never promoted. They told me they did this with everyone. I complained to HR, but they refused to do anything about it. I don't really consider myself an attractive man, I think they were doing it to be mean and have some dirt…

Why didn't you go the police instead of HR?

Re: It's Different for Girls

#218

Post by stcredzero » Sat, May 03, 2014, 12:16 AM UTC

Mz wrote: post #176

stormbrew wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's even worse than being 'crafty', they're actually trying to show you respect under the idea that because you're with her you have a claim on her and they're deferring to that. Which is incredibly creepy and offensive.

Men are dramatically less likely to hit on me when I am with either or both of my adult sons. Many people realize they are relatives (though some think they are my brothers, not my sons) so, no, they don't think I am the sexual property of these two males. I have only been bothered by a guy when my sons are around when the guy was drinking alcohol. So I think the parent comment is more accurate than your assumption,…

I'm not so sure the men doing this are thinking consciously about property rights. They're probably going around motivated at the primate level. This doesn't excuse what they're doing, but it makes me suspect that they will continue to emulate the behavior of the other men they observe in their environment and will only change when they see others around them change their behavior.

This is what people are like: only a minority of people will go through the motions of self examination, and only a minority of those will do that effectively. Where real change happens, or where outdated misbehaviors persist, it's basically a matter of primate see, primate do. Real change has to have a component of motivation at this level.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#219

Post by aasarava » Sat, May 03, 2014, 12:17 AM UTC

Udo wrote: post #210

marssaxman wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She did not seem to interpret the joke the way in the way that you are doing here. As with most humor, we can assume that a lot of the meaning had to do with tone and body language, and she describes the "borrow mine" comment as something which defused the tension created by an earlier remark.

That's exactly what I found so strange about this article. In his first remark the dick is clearly a figure of speech. In this case it's maybe an unfortunate phrase but it doesn't really exclude people without male genitalia (because it's not really about those). His second remark, however, is clearly innuendo. And that was described as having diffused the situation. As a reader, the first remark did not affect me, b…

To the contrary, I think it illustrates your social awareness. You're exactly right -- in the first comment, he using dicks in a generic way to make a point about everyone in the room, including himself. This isn't the issue, really.

The issue is in his next comment when he jokes about Heidi handling his dick frequently. Yes, yes, it's a joke, so it's different from doing something physical like putting her hand on his crotch. But in telling the joke, he paints a picture of the one female in the room in a sexual position. Many people would be uncomfortable about that, even embarrassed. It's not a professional thing to do.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#220

Post by orky56 » Sat, May 03, 2014, 12:20 AM UTC

We are in the 21st century, everyone knows right from wrong, and we're still in this situation of sex & sexism in the workplace? Despite the rise of anonymous, democratic, and free voice, whistleblowers still have more to worry about than ever. Majority of rape incidents go unreported, sexual harassment to males is increasing, and we are creating tools to draw people together. If the culture is to change, common decency, morals, and ethics need to be emphasized consistently throughout age, career, and power progression. As we saw with Dropbox and Mozilla, public outrage has an effect and upper management has to address these concerns. Founders need to create the culture of transparency over even matters like this. People need to call each other out when words come out like "Which girl in the office would you like to...?" At the end of the day, you have to choose whether your opposite sex coworkers are your family or friends.