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It's Different for Girls

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Re: It's Different for Girls

#71

Post by Mz »

gfodor wrote: post #44
britta wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can educate yourself and others! There are lots of resources for learning how to do more, including speaking up to other men and putting some money toward supporting people who are making a difference. Here's an article with a bunch of options ("What Can Men Do? Men working with other men against patriarchy in technology"): https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0 - and here's an allies training worksh…

Sorry, but I find Shanley's approach to framing this issue completely the opposite of the OP here. The OP sees the good in good men and lifts them up. The closing point about the joke she shared with her colleagues underlines it: there are people who are unable to laugh off a "dick in your hand" joke regardless of context and who it comes from. Not because of a lack of sense of humor, but because any such joke will b…

I will suggest that some women, having been beaten and raped (edit: by men, in case I need to spell that out), have good reasons why they can't bring themselves to laugh off some kinds of jokes.

I don't entirely disagree with some of your points but I certainly don't entirely agree with them either.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#72

Post by abracar »

jdp23 wrote: post #46
britta wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can educate yourself and others! There are lots of resources for learning how to do more, including speaking up to other men and putting some money toward supporting people who are making a difference. Here's an article with a bunch of options ("What Can Men Do? Men working with other men against patriarchy in technology"): https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0 - and here's an allies training worksh…

britt's post is a substantive answer to 'news_to_me's question, with links off to useful resources. What does it say about the HN community that it was downvoted? [And by the way, this is an example of the 'speaking up' that britta mentioned. Guys, when you see this kind of hostile-to-women behavior on HN, call it out.]

That some of us don't find these resources that useful or relevant?

Re: It's Different for Girls

#73

Post by jordo37 »

gfodor wrote: post #44
britta wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can educate yourself and others! There are lots of resources for learning how to do more, including speaking up to other men and putting some money toward supporting people who are making a difference. Here's an article with a bunch of options ("What Can Men Do? Men working with other men against patriarchy in technology"): https://medium.com/tech-culture-briefs/a1e93d985af0 - and here's an allies training worksh…

Sorry, but I find Shanley's approach to framing this issue completely the opposite of the OP here. The OP sees the good in good men and lifts them up. The closing point about the joke she shared with her colleagues underlines it: there are people who are unable to laugh off a "dick in your hand" joke regardless of context and who it comes from. Not because of a lack of sense of humor, but because any such joke will b…

1) that joke was sexist, and Brad Feld's follow up after she called him out was more sexist. She may have a relationship with Brad which supersedes the joke itself and that makes it okay in the narrow context of their relationship, but that was a sexist joke.

2) I don't view men as oppressors, but I do think we as men have privilege and that is why we need to work with each other on the issue of sexism. I do not find her language condemning, but I have been working on issues of gender for several years now.

In all honesty, I would love to hear more about why Shanley's language does not work for you as I think her core points are excellent and I would love to know what language to help share this with others.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#74

Post by nollidge »

throwwwaya2 wrote: post #53

I would love to write "It’s Different for Boys", not as a rebuttal, but to explain how two-sided this problem is from a man's perspective. That sexual harassment and the weirdly dysfunctional sexual culture of business is perpetuated on men as well as women. I arrived on the scene in the Bay Area start-up culture ~5 years ago from a very different industry / cultural perspective. I was in LOVE with the idea of the Ba…

How is this a rebuttal? If anything, this furthers the author's case.

EDIT: nevermind, the language was fixed.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#75

Post by vezzy-fnord »

calibraxis wrote: post #45
news_to_me wrote: post #5

Lack of diversity in the tech industry truly saddens me. I love technology, and I want to encourage everyone else to discover how magical it is. It's a tragedy that the industry can be so hostile to some, for apparently no reason. But as a white male, I feel powerless to do anything. I can't speak for women, or for other races, or really for anyone else. I want to help fix this, but where do I begin?

You can amplify their voices and efforts. For example, depending on your power, you can take Shanley's articles like this ( https://medium.com/about-work/514a6edcce2c ) and implement them. Or you can disclose your salary. Or install a simple code of conduct. Society stamped the male designation on my forehead, and feel like there's no end of wonderful things I do that have an immediate impact. Which improve people's…

I'm getting an odd vibe from your comment. Almost as if you try to be some heroic anarchist who has swallowed the red pill, except a rather juvenile one.

Indeed, I'm curious how your being a male lets you do "no end of wonderful things that have an immediate impact". Either you're in a high socioeconomic position, or you're overstating your abilities significantly. "Attacking the patriarchy" doesn't mean much, and the latter sounds like it comes straight out of a parodic parable.

Finally, that colorful interpretation of Avatar was interesting, though not particularly innovative.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#76

Post by kansface »

scott_karana wrote: post #38
rafekett wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'm incredibly reluctant to post in threads like this, but I think this attitude is actually hurting diversity in the industry: excessive "chivalry" by males gives more of an illusion of preferential treatment when women stand up to discrimination, which is just more fuel for the gender war fire. women need our support, not our defense. it's fine to be outraged, but your response should not be to go on the offensive.

If women can't speak up, lest they be further marginalized, and men can't speak up, lest they add more fuel, what can be done?... (Not that I disagree at all! Serious question.)

You are directly responsible for yourself and anyone you employ. You have some responsibility for the actions of those you do business with insomuch as you can stop doing business with them. Lets start here.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#78

Post by [deleted] »

skannamalai wrote: post #17
Swizec wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then you have people like me who consider trolling to be the single best way of bonding with people. I don't think I could work with a person I can't say offensive things to and who doesn't say offensive things back. Maybe I'm just too European, I don't know.

Are you a person of color? Are you a woman? Are you gay? Are you trans? Are you disabled? Not trolling, genuinely curious. Edit: I can't reply to the children (might be my karma game) and so I'll reply here. The linked article is about specifically about power and privilege, and how being a woman in the tech business puts you at a severe disadvantage in your job, in your community of choice. The reason why I ask is j…

[deleted]

Re: It's Different for Girls

#79

Post by Mz »

scott_karana wrote: post #38
rafekett wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'm incredibly reluctant to post in threads like this, but I think this attitude is actually hurting diversity in the industry: excessive "chivalry" by males gives more of an illusion of preferential treatment when women stand up to discrimination, which is just more fuel for the gender war fire. women need our support, not our defense. it's fine to be outraged, but your response should not be to go on the offensive.

If women can't speak up, lest they be further marginalized, and men can't speak up, lest they add more fuel, what can be done?... (Not that I disagree at all! Serious question.)

Women and men can, and should, both speak up (or, better, take action). It's not a question of IF, it's a question of when and how.

Re: It's Different for Girls

#80

Post by brudgers »

jawns wrote: post #6

I think the big takeaway here, not just for women but for anyone in the workplace who feels uncomfortable with or offended by something someone else has said, is to consider the intent. Sometimes somebody says something offensive, and they don't even know they're being offensive. And in those cases, you can take them aside, explain to them why it's offended you, and hopefully they'll say, "Oh, dreadfully sorry, I did…

Actions which are done without thinking through the consequences are careless, reckless, or negligent. Each of us is free to let such people off the hook when we are the victim as a result of such actions. But just as we are not obligated to do so, neither are other victims. And suggesting that forbearance is what someone else ought to do is bullshit.

A man who treats women poorly isn't ignorant, he's habitual, and the habit was developed and persists because he's been let off the hook or as is the case with the VC's in the story because of a disparity of power.

It's bullying and part and parcel of bullying is a lack of contrition.

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