Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#141

Post by morganvachon » Mon, Apr 14, 2014, 5:22 PM UTC

thefreeman wrote: post #124

morganvachon wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...so basically this is justifying his purchase to himself, little more than that. I don't see where he said otherwise.

I think making a domain entirely dedicated to it is evidence that it wasn't intended as just self justification. edit: On further thought, maybe not. It does seem to be the trend to do websites for a single topic or piece of writing. I would still take it as indication you are presenting it to others though.

As long as he indicates that it's anecdotal (as he did throughout the piece) I don't see an issue with sharing it with the world. It's not like he's selling himself as a car buying consultant; he's just sharing the fruits of his private labors with anyone who it may help. He's a Harvard MBA grad; I'm sure he's proud of his skills. I can see that fostering the desire to make a dedicated website. But then, I tend to see the best in people before considering the worst (which is probably why I'm not a businessman at heart).

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#142

Post by dublinben » Mon, Apr 14, 2014, 5:47 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #126

oasisbob wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, at least renters have some protection from the FCC (on paper, at least) when it comes to antennas: "The OTARD rule allows local governments, community associations and landlords to enforce restrictions that do not impair the installation, maintenance or use of the types of antennas described above [...]" http://www.neighborhoodlink.com/article/Association/FCC_Sate... Given that many areas mandate…

I've used OTARD against a condo board where I lived, back when satellite dishes were still new. OTARD could primarily exist because unit owners could install dishes in areas that were "common" by the legal definition, such as the exterior of a building, but "semi-private" by virtue of the unit owner being the only one to have access to it, such as a balcony. OTARD let you install a dish on your balcony, but not on th…

It's quite common in many buildings to be assigned a single parking space for your use. If you have one such parking space that is "yours," you could install a high-power charger.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#143

Post by bri3d » Mon, Apr 14, 2014, 6:01 PM UTC

pakile wrote: post #81

001sky wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The spreadsheet seems light on maintenance numbers. The car is sold in year 8 but hasn't been serviced in several years previous (seems odd). Most people correct for this come the residual. Also, the tires on this car wear out quickly. 120k miles would see at least 6x sets of tires in the back (some are going in under 10k miles), and likely 4 in the front (20x$400=8,000). Also, the Battery is expensive and shoudl be…

Tesla offers the option to purchase 4y of maintenance for $1900, which I included in the model, vs. $600/yr. The options are nearly economical neutral, but I plan to do at least the 1st 4y option. Maintenance also includes brake pad replacement. I did not include tires or insurance - either for the Tesla or for the other vehicles (Ody, BMW, Volvo). I also didn't include the financial value of safety (though Travis at…

Why didn't you include tires or insurance? Tires for a Tesla (especially with the larger-wheel packages) will be enormously more expensive than those for an Odyssey, and the car will wear them out much more quickly.

On a low maintenance gasoline engine (i.e. not VW/Audi), consumables like tires, brake pads+rotors, dampers, wheel bearings, ball joints, and so on outweigh the ICE specific costs like oil filter and change, spark plugs, serpentine belts, timing belts, and water pumps by a decent margin, doubly so if the engine has a well engineered timing chain system and thus doesn't require an involved timing-belt service.

Plus, an electric car still has plenty of moving powertrain parts like water pumps and valves that could fail, and we don't know if that will happen yet.

Tesla are at a huge advantage in this department, though, because they've accustomed their clients to being tracked at all times and their cars are all serviced at Tesla-owned service centers. That means that if any failure patterns become evident, Tesla can summon their owners to have the issue fixed proactively before it becomes a problem. I love this model and do think it adds a lot of value to the Tesla, but whether or not they can sustain such a program at scale remains to be seen.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#144

Post by jesusmichael » Mon, Apr 14, 2014, 6:11 PM UTC

ericd wrote: post #104

jamesaguilar wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often come to the wrong conclusion when "just thinking" about it, especially in domains where I am not even a novice. Also, the fact that I don't find listings for 500hp brushless motors for I can see where you get your belief -- I wasn't questioning that it is a reasonable one to hold. But I am asking for evidence that compels me to a confidence level I'd actually bet on. Data will be required. Thought experiments…

You're making an assertion that runs counter to the common wisdom that electric cars will require less maintenance, so the burden of proof is on you. The fact that you can't find brushless motors online that retail for less than $10k is not convincing, because it's a new use case, a unique design, and they're not selling them outside of cars. You don't know what the pricing is. As far as materials, that amount of cop…

So your logic tells you that Tesla has "invented" an electric motor, so rugged that it can withstand that riggers of being inside a consumer vehicle on the open road with a novice operator, in various environmental conditions, that is a fraction of the cost of similarly powered electric motors that operate in static environments, such as a factory floor, with experienced operators and fixed maintenance schedules? Wow.. I have a bridge to sell you... you're not the guy to be discussing "common wisdom"...

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#145

Post by bri3d » Mon, Apr 14, 2014, 6:17 PM UTC

pakile wrote: post #50

bpowah wrote: post #36

I don't understand how the '14 model S is "AWD equivalent".

Scroll down to "Cold Weather Performance" on this page: http://www.teslamotors.com/models/features#/performance I forgot to write about this on www.teslacost.com, but one reason I didn't consider the Model S early on is b/c it's RWD and I wanted AWD for Tahoe and the like. Then I saw the above video.

You need to factor a set of good winter tires in the Tesla sizes into your cost model, then.

The stock tires on the Tesla and even most all-season options are woefully insufficient to make the Tesla safe in the snow, although its favorable weight distribution vs. other RWD cars does help some.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#146

Post by joezydeco » Mon, Apr 14, 2014, 7:58 PM UTC

dublinben wrote: post #142

joezydeco wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've used OTARD against a condo board where I lived, back when satellite dishes were still new. OTARD could primarily exist because unit owners could install dishes in areas that were "common" by the legal definition, such as the exterior of a building, but "semi-private" by virtue of the unit owner being the only one to have access to it, such as a balcony. OTARD let you install a dish on your balcony, but not on th…

It's quite common in many buildings to be assigned a single parking space for your use. If you have one such parking space that is "yours," you could install a high-power charger.

Not without tearing through "common" areas to install the wiring and connect to the utility. And unless you plan to connect all the way back to your unit's power meter, you will also need a meter installed in the common area that's exclusively for your use.

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#147

Post by venturenow » Mon, Apr 14, 2014, 8:06 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #102

D_Alex wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Norway, like Canada, is sparsely populated country. 2. I saw a Norwegian registered Model S in Zurich last week.

The distance between Oslo and Bergen is smaller than the distance between Toronto and Montreal - which are fairly close to each other in Canadian terms. Look at your population density maps of the two - Norway has most of its people clustered around Oslo, whereas Canada has a wide spray across the southeast. The distance from Hamilton to Halifax is basically equal to the length of Norway, and it's only a quarter of t…

Whatever. Let's focus on the real facts instead of these anectodes about "Big Country" "small country". I find this stuff fully meaningless.

Here's the full review with English subs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ5PqPeOPT0

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#148

Post by jesusmichael » Mon, Apr 14, 2014, 9:05 PM UTC

D_Alex wrote: post #105

sergiosgc wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a perfectly written comment, downvoted. I don't agree with the conclusion, I question several of the premises, but I can't understand downvoting based on agreement. The comment is good, well written, and adds to the discussion. It should be upvoted. Are there voting guidelines for HN? Am I in the wrong here?

That comment has so much bullshit in it - here is a sampling: >The statement that electric motors have fewer moving parts so they last substantially longer is a fallacy No, it is true on all counts. I'd explain in detail, but this is so weird I dont really know where to start. >90% of a vehicle's maintenance has nothing to do with its motor Rubbish. In a gasoline (or diesel) powered car, the majority of maintenance i…

I should have stated "electric vehicles" vs "electric cars".

However you really don't have the slightest idea about the motor that's in the Tesla. Which is a 3 phase induction motor. There's a lot that goes into converting DC battery power to AC and then controlling the torque. Heat is another issue that will have to be dealt with as well and the latest announcement from Tesla is that they will be adding a water cooled system to the induction motors in the future.

A property serviced gas motor doesn't need much more beyond oil and spark plug changes and can last for several hundreds of thousands of miles. The majority of the consumables are in the wheel systems, tires, brakes, suspension, bearings, heating and cooling the cabin, etc.

I'm sure you're an idealistic kid that thinks green is good... and knows that ignition=starting, but the fact remains that gas engines have a 100 years of service history and electric car motors don't which means...

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#149

Post by jesusmichael » Mon, Apr 14, 2014, 9:58 PM UTC

hatbert wrote: post #86

jesusmichael wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My source is an industrial electric motor supplier. Google "400hp electric motor" I'm not saying tesla's require oil changes as a gas engine does... oil will last quite a long time when not contaminated by hydrocarbons. But even sealed bearings need to be repacked after so much wear. To parts can't move against on another without generating heat, which will degrade a lubricant and allow wear.

Have you tried looking for motors that aren't designed for 60 Hz operation? I think you might be in for a surprise...

Tesla uses a induction motor... which is AC and they use a frequency control unit to modulate the speed of the motor. So frequency isn't really a consideration...

Re: Tesla Model S – Cost of Ownership vs. Honda Odyssey

#150

Post by dang » Mon, Apr 14, 2014, 11:03 PM UTC

sergiosgc wrote: post #100

jesusmichael wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The statement that electric motors have fewer moving parts so they last substantially longer is a fallacy that electric car proponents have been spreading for years. There are still many, moving parts which require servicing and can fail at a rate of similarly serviced gas engines. In fact servicing (rewinding) is quite a labor intensive and expensive operation, given the price of copper or other conductive material…

Here's a perfectly written comment, downvoted. I don't agree with the conclusion, I question several of the premises, but I can't understand downvoting based on agreement. The comment is good, well written, and adds to the discussion. It should be upvoted. Are there voting guidelines for HN? Am I in the wrong here?

> Are there voting guidelines for HN? Am I in the wrong here?

There aren't formal guidelines. The informal practice has always been that downvoting for disagreement is ok, but when people see a comment that has been downvoted unfairly, they upvote it back to par.

We're open to changing that, but we look at the data pretty closely and the current balance strikes me as about right. We can't read all the comments, though. If you see a comment that has clearly been unfairly downvoted (i.e. is faded out when it shouldn't be), please tell us about it at hn@ycombinator.com. If there get to be very many of these, we'll start thinking about how to change that.