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Re: Drop Dropbox

#841

Post by glesica »

dctoedt wrote: post #666
kareemm wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one hand Rumsfeld et. al. implied / declared WMD were OK for Hussein to use on the Kurds, but later on removed him for allegedly hiding WMD. Since DC made the argument that Hussein should have been removed because of his WMD use, you could make the same argument about the folks in the US govt who sponsored Hussein's original use of WMD against the Kurds.

> Since DC made the argument that Hussein should have been removed because of his WMD use .... I'm not making that argument. I cite his WMD use as a factor that went into the thinking of the political leaders back then.

  > ...went into the thinking of the political leaders back then.
But if the things you cite don't make logical sense, then those things must not have been actual considerations, or those considerations were made in bad faith.

Re: Drop Dropbox

#843

Post by cpt1138 »

whistlerbrk wrote: post #265

Oh please. Every American here, myself included, started the war in Iraq and helped pass the Patriot Act by electing these buffoons and not throwing them out of office. The fault is within ourselves.

And how do you suggest throwing them out of office?

Re: Drop Dropbox

#844

Post by lynndylanhurley »

grellas wrote: post #538

Think about what it means to the HN culture to have a subject that normally would have been flagged out of existence as overtly political suddenly be featured front and center in the apparent belief that ideological purity is now a litmus test for who can serve on a board of directors in the startup world. In a free society, people can unite in their business ventures even though they might be far apart in how they v…

This isn't about a vague ideology (re: Eich). It's about ACTIONS that Condoleezza Rice, personally, has taken in the past, and using those actions to predict what she will probably do in the future. She has shown us, with her actions, that she cannot be trusted with sensitive data.

Re: Drop Dropbox

#845

Post by dylandrop »

grellas wrote: post #538

Think about what it means to the HN culture to have a subject that normally would have been flagged out of existence as overtly political suddenly be featured front and center in the apparent belief that ideological purity is now a litmus test for who can serve on a board of directors in the startup world. In a free society, people can unite in their business ventures even though they might be far apart in how they v…

If we allow people who we consider morally reprehensible to practice their business without question and profit off of us, perhaps there is something flawed with the business-as-usual approach.* It is only when you take a stand against these business-as-usual mindsets that pervade our culture do things change. We can't always expect perfection by people speaking out, but if we yell and scream at people who are angry and browbeat them into complacence, the problems (Rice's awful track record) are deemed acceptable by society and are likely to repeat themselves.

*By business-as-usual, I'm referring to your statement -- that someone can freely practice business no matter what acts they've committed, or wrongs they've perpetrated on humanity.

Re: Drop Dropbox

#846

Post by dec0dedab0de »

dragontamer wrote: post #805
araes wrote: post #789

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then we'll democratically argue and fight about it, and people will cast votes for the news they want to see, which will determine what the general "mood" of the site is. Its the bane and blessing of all social groups. As they get larger, people get exposed to / interact with lots of viewpoints that might not have originally been part of the core. To some level this is good, as it broadens horizons and enhances discu…

Unlike Democracy in real life, people who hold different ideologies from you on a website will simply leave and start their own websites. Real Life Democracy forces you to work with your political opponents. Website Democracy forces everyone to think the same, or leave.

Website Democracy forces everyone to think the same, or leave.

If that were true then arguments on the Internet would be rare.

Re: Drop Dropbox

#847

Post by glesica »

tptacek wrote: post #372
glesica wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(C) Saddam Hussein had irrefutably demonstrated that he was willing to use weapons of mass destruction in pursuit of his ambitions: he had used chemical weapons both on Iraqi Kurds and on Iranians (and let's not forget his brutal conquest of Kuwait); And who let him have those weapons and told him to go ahead and use them against the Iranians? He looks lovely in that photo embracing Donald Rumsfeld... So by this stan…

What does this have to do with D.C.'s point?

You can't, in good faith, argue that Iraq was about WMD proliferation.

First, we didn't go to war with Pakistan or India to prevent them from getting nukes, despite the fact that the historical tension between those countries means that actual use of WMDs is terrifyingly likely.

Second, if people who have a history of using such weapons are inherently ill-suited to having them (a possible counter-argument for my first point, since Pakistan and India have never used them before), then why on earth did anyone let Bush's national security team (including Rumsfeld) so near the red button when they actively participated in Hussein's use of those weapons.

When you make an argument based on a point, and that point turns out to be invalid, the argument is weaker. That is what my point has to do with the original argument.

Re: Drop Dropbox

#848

Post by droopybuns »

mikeash wrote: post #619
droopybuns wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to actively engage. So that means we actually do need to volunteer. We do need to donate. We even need to run for office. I don't know if my experience is a corner case- but every politician I've ever met has been weird. They don't seem like normal americans. We need to recognize that the world runs on PACs and that if we don't have a PAC to advocate our position, we're not going to get the outcomes w…

Who do I volunteer with and donate to? There are no political parties I can stomach. Even if you go beyond the two big ones and posit that it's useful to contribute to a third party (and I'm already skeptical of that), they're all completely bonkers. Run for office? That's too much of a sacrifice to ask. It's not a job I want, by far. If I ever managed to get nominated, I'd do my best to sabotage my own campaign so a…

"Is not "accept when we lose" completely contradictory to the rest of what you're saying?"

This is the price of democracy. Not everyone disagrees with you for malignant reasons. They can have legitimate, ethical reasons for disagreeing with you.

"You say that we should get out and do things to fight for what we believe, and then you turn around and say we should just let it go."

I appologize if that's what it sounded like. I'm saying we have to accept democracy's outcomes if the democracy is actually functioning (i.e. no ballot stuffing). If you don't like the outcome of a vote, continue to work within the democratic process. Lobby for an idea through Publicity. Lobby your congress critters. Keep working within the political system.

Keeping tallies of the thought-infractions of citizens in the private sector is not healthy though. I see no difference between that and the assassination of the jesuit priest in Syria last week.

A healthy society should be supportive of and accepting of diversity of opinions and lifestyle. That means more than just being nice to LGBT folks. Even people with religious beliefs you find abhorent have the right to prosper to the best of their ability, as long as they are not violating our laws.

edit My point is ultimately proven.

Re: Drop Dropbox

#849

Post by nilved »

rbanffy wrote: post #832
nilved wrote: post #758

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope this extends to opposing the Obama administration, which has continued and extended war, torture, and the patriot act. Of course it does. That's the logical conclusion. Why wouldn't it? There isn't any informed person in 2014 who is unable to realize Obama has been worse than Bush as far as torture and war go.

> Obama has been worse than Bush as far as torture and war go Please remind me how many wars did Obama start based on fake intelligence. Obama may not be the president the world hoped he would be, but Bush is on a whole different league. If the US is much less secure today than it was before 9/11, you can thank Bush and his cronies (Rice included) for that. That situation also severely limits what your current presid…

Bush isn't actively dropping bombs on schoolhouses. Bush isn't actively detaining and torturing people in black sites. These are things that were pioneered by Bush and perfected by Obama.

If you hate Bush, you need to hate Obama, or you're simply an unreasonable hypocrite. This isn't up for debate.

Re: Drop Dropbox

#850

Post by davidw »

angersock wrote: post #819
mindcrime wrote: post #809

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try out lobste.rs I do, and I like lobste.rs, but it's a little bit of a catch-22. Lobste.rs is more "ideologically pure" because the userbase is smaller, but that smaller userbase also means there is a lot less discussion going on at any given time. But I think we're clearly starting to see aspects of the "Eternal September" effect here, due to the user growth over the years. So what can ya do? sigh It's way to easy…

So, some of the problem--a good part, really--is that political discussion need not be furious debate and talking past each other. An article on some sort of political theory, on some philosophy of governance, etc. can lead to useful discussion. Having more systems articles on politics is something I wouldn't mind seeing on HN at all. But, most articles posted (I believe--haven't run a report on it) do not seem to le…

> is that political discussion need not be furious debate and talking past each other.

No, but it's pretty much bound to wind up that way. The effort to put forth a well-considered, nuanced, reasoned point of view is an order of magnitude more than that required for a snarky one-liner about "dude, like, the US is, like, totally not a democracy and stuff". Which means that the latter out-competes the former.

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