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Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

blog.mozilla.org

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Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#391

Post by sanxiyn »

akerl_ wrote: post #286
sanxiyn wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, not lying is great, it builds trust, yada yada. On the other hand, imagine you have two choices. You can either lie, or Google Chrome achieves 90% market share, all of web runs on Pepper, and there is no more open web. (Let's call this world "Google Earth".) Mozilla's mission is to prevent such world, right? Do you seriously think not lying is the right thing to do in this case? Now imagine you have choices of…

Perhaps we're referring to different organizations here, but I've reviewed Mozilla's mission statement and efforts and it doesn't appear their task has any connection to preventing "Google Earth", as you describe it.

Feel free to replace "Google Earth" with some situation you think is contrary to Mozilla's mission. The exact same argument still applies.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#392

Post by forgottenpass »

SimHacker wrote: post #254
nostrademons wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This line of reasoning is very troubling to me, because 20 years ago it was pretty much unacceptable in the U.S. to hold the opinion that gays were entitled to full legal rights, let alone the ability to marry. That changed only because some very courageous people stuck their neck out, weathered all the flack and negative personal repercussions towards themselves, and gradually made the point of "Why not?" I fully su…

The difference is that the people who stuck their neck out for racial equality, gay rights and women's rights were objectively right, but Brendan Eich is objectively wrong. And that matters.

objectively right

There is no such thing. I agree with them, and under various moral philosophies I could make convincing arguments that they're right, but you're off the rails.

Or, if you've really found an objective measure of right and wrong that isn't based on a subjective positing of objectivity, you've upended an entire field of study, have a very rewarding future and are totally set for life. You'll just have to forgive us for not waiting with baited breath.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#393

Post by clavalle »

muyuu wrote: post #300
matthewmacleod wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eich made a mistake when he supported prop 8. He actively avoided apologising for his support of prop 8 – a law which is directly opposed to the values of Mozilla as an organisation. Had he done so, I suspect there would have been much less backlash.

Why should he apologise if he believes he's in the right? That's just pushing hypocrisy.

I don't think people are advocating for him to apologize while still believing he is correct.

I think people are advocating that he reflect on his beliefs, come to a different conclusion than he's held, and then apologize for his past views.

It doesn't seem like he is going that route.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#394

Post by garretraziel »

DangerousPie wrote: post #45

I am a strong supporter of gay marriage, but I have to say that I find this very unfortunate and worrying. Apparently many Mozilla supporters seem to think it is okay to bully a qualified person out of his job only for his political views, even if they had absolutely no effect on his qualification or his actions on the job. I can't help but feel like this campaign has done a lot more harm to him than his $1000 donati…

I have to disagree. Let aside if it is right or wrong to support homophobic groups. Essence is that many people would hate him for what he did - and I think that it is bad to have CEO who is hated for his personal opinions.

I live in Czech Republic and our past president was global warming denier, he wrote several books about that. I will not judge if he was right or not, but because he had so strong and controversial opinions, it shed bad light on our country.

I think that when you are "public person" or spokesman, you have to be very careful about what you do and say, because then you aren't hurting only yourself, but whole organisation you represent.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#395

Post by muyuu »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #331
muyuu wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should he apologise if he believes he's in the right? That's just pushing hypocrisy.

If he firmly held the belief, and did not change his mind, then he shouldn't apologise. In that case, it's legitimate to complain about his personal views where they are not compatible with his position.

How so? he was a CEO not a politician.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#396

Post by arrrg »

muyuu wrote: post #300
matthewmacleod wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eich made a mistake when he supported prop 8. He actively avoided apologising for his support of prop 8 – a law which is directly opposed to the values of Mozilla as an organisation. Had he done so, I suspect there would have been much less backlash.

Why should he apologise if he believes he's in the right? That's just pushing hypocrisy.

He shouldn’t apologise if he didn’t actually change his opinion – but then you can also not make the argument that he made a mistake. Mistake sort of implies that he acknowledges he made a mistake – which he doesn’t.

You can’t forgive someone if they aren’t asking for forgiveness.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#397

Post by veemjeem »

dopamean wrote: post #109
chrismonsanto wrote: post #11

My #1 question -- is Eich returning to CTO, another position, or quitting altogether? All in all, I think this was a pragmatic move. I am not a fan of this "CEO = literally the company" logic, though. I saw no reason to believe that he would use Mozilla to further an anti-gay agenda.

> I saw no reason to believe that he would use Mozilla to further an anti-gay agenda. I agree. However, it's a little weird if you say you are a company who values diversity and different lifestyles but you have a CEO who is openly against a particular group of people. That kind of contradiction at the very top makes things weird.

People change too. You can't hold it against someone all their life because they donated $1000 to prop 8. For the rest of his life, people will look at Eich differently simply due to the small donation amount many decades ago.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#398

Post by matthewmacleod »

wyclif wrote: post #329
matthewmacleod wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we going to start ritually sacrificing people who don't line up with our personal causes and opinions? No - we are hopefully going to continue objecting to the appointment of people whose personal views are incompatible with the values of the organisation they are supposed to represent. That's totally legitimate, and I absolutely fail to see what is wrong with doing so.

A software developer and friend of mine wrote this just now, upon hearing the news. I thought I'd share it here because I thought it was apt: Mozilla believes both in equality and freedom of speech. Equality is necessary for meaningful speech. And you need free speech to fight for equality. Figuring out how to stand for both at the same time can be hard. You also need free speech to discuss what equality means, but a…

You also need free speech to discuss what equality means, but apparently that is no longer possible; our culture-makers have now decided there is a univocal conception of equality that must be imposed on everyone.

This is a gross misreading of the situation. It's actually pretty simple:

- Eitch is appointed to important, visible community leadership position - His personal views are incompatible with those of the organisation and actively harmful to many members of that community - He does not engage with or deal with this controversy, such as by apologising for his actions - People in the community who are directly or indirectly affected by his actions object to the appointment - He resigns.

I'm really, really struggling to figure out what exactly you guys who are banging on about "cultural imposition" and other hand wavy nonsense actually think should happen in a situation like this. Is the suggestion that nobody should ever complain about anything? Should we complain, but avoid calling for resignation? Should we turn a blind eye to people who are trying to strip civil rights from us, our family, or our friends?

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#399

Post by seldon »

phillmv wrote: post #14

From the recode recap - http://recode.net/2014/04/03/mozilla-co-founder-brendan-eich... >“It’s clear that Brendan cannot lead Mozilla in this setting,” said Baker, who added that she would not and could not speak for Eich. “The ability to lead — particularly for the CEO — is fundamental to the role and that is not possible here.” The most damning aspect of this was their a) inability to predict this would be an issue…

Eich's late March '14 comment, for reference: https://brendaneich.com/2014/03/inclusiveness-at-mozilla/

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#400

Post by baddox »

DangerousPie wrote: post #164
dopamean wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with you but I think the problem here is that being against gay marriage is more than just a "political view." Being for low taxes is a political view. Being for smaller government is a political view. Believing a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like other simply because of who they love is not a political view. It reads as extremely hateful and that makes people uncomforta…

I have heard people mention this distinction before, but it seems a bit arbitrary to me. You and I may agree that this is a universal right that is "not up for discussion", but we can't deny the fact that there is a sizable portion of people that would disagree with us. Many of them believe as strongly that we are wrong as we believe that they are wrong. In my eyes, this shows that there are certainly different viewp…

If you think it's "not up for discussion," I think there is a serious problem with your view. And yes, I think my previous sentence is up for discussion.
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