Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO • Hacker News Board

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#251

Post by Touche » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 7:45 PM UTC

camus2 wrote: post #191

Touche wrote: post #128

This really saddens me. It is a black-mark on the gay rights movement. Eich made a mistake when he supported prop 8. History will clearly show this, like history has shown those who opposed interracial marriage were wrong. Being on the right-side of history isn't about stomping out those who opposed you when you finally win. It's not about retribution for past slights. Did we learn nothing from Nelson Mandela?

> Eich made a mistake when he supported prop 8 Nothing proves that Eich think he did make a mistake. He never apologized for that and refused to talk about it.I'm sure he would not need to resign if he did apologize. People make mistakes, and most people will forgive if an apology is issued.

It doesn't matter what Eich thinks. History isn't going to reverse course so there's no need for those who are wrong to fall to their knees and beg for forgiveness. Being graceful in victory is about letting those who opposed you to get away with their mistake.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#252

Post by Crito » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 7:45 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #199

danpalmer wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think 'integrity' in the face of an opinion that is becoming more and more unacceptable to hold in our culture is a good thing. Changing your views, and admitting you were wrong is the best thing you can do.

This line of reasoning is very troubling to me, because 20 years ago it was pretty much unacceptable in the U.S. to hold the opinion that gays were entitled to full legal rights, let alone the ability to marry. That changed only because some very courageous people stuck their neck out, weathered all the flack and negative personal repercussions towards themselves, and gradually made the point of "Why not?" I fully su…

Nobodies' right to have different viewpoints is being taken away. Nobodies' right to donate to political causes is being taken away.

The only people in this entire story that were/are trying to take away the rights of others were the people who pushed for Prop 8. The right to support legislation like Prop 8 remains intact. The right to not be criticized by others for doing so has never existed in the first place. There is no "right to not be criticized".

[Edit] The voting swings on this comment indicate to me that it is controversial, so I will attempt clear some things up:

* Whether or not you believe that same sex couples should be allowed to marry, the fact is that before Prop 8 they did have the right to marry.

* The purpose of Prop 8 was to remove this right, because the supporters of Prop 8 felt that it should not be a right.

* After this entire series of events, Brendan remains free to donate to similar political causes in the future. He remains free to publicly hold these beliefs. He remains free to be a CEO.

* The general public remains free to criticize Brendan for anything that they please.

* The rest of the general public remains free to criticize those criticizing Brendan for his political beliefs.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#253

Post by tptacek » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 7:45 PM UTC

Hey, Joe, do you support marriage equality?

Of course I do.

You know, I'm not sure I believe you. After all, you pretty much have to say that to keep your job.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#254

Post by SimHacker » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 7:45 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #199

danpalmer wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think 'integrity' in the face of an opinion that is becoming more and more unacceptable to hold in our culture is a good thing. Changing your views, and admitting you were wrong is the best thing you can do.

This line of reasoning is very troubling to me, because 20 years ago it was pretty much unacceptable in the U.S. to hold the opinion that gays were entitled to full legal rights, let alone the ability to marry. That changed only because some very courageous people stuck their neck out, weathered all the flack and negative personal repercussions towards themselves, and gradually made the point of "Why not?" I fully su…

The difference is that the people who stuck their neck out for racial equality, gay rights and women's rights were objectively right, but Brendan Eich is objectively wrong. And that matters.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#255

Post by bashinator » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 7:45 PM UTC

akerl_ wrote: post #81

phillmv wrote: post #14

From the recode recap - http://recode.net/2014/04/03/mozilla-co-founder-brendan-eich... >“It’s clear that Brendan cannot lead Mozilla in this setting,” said Baker, who added that she would not and could not speak for Eich. “The ability to lead — particularly for the CEO — is fundamental to the role and that is not possible here.” The most damning aspect of this was their a) inability to predict this would be an issue…

I would have considered him a worse person if he'd done that. I disagree with his opinions on marriage, but he has the right to have those opinions, and to provide support for causes he believes in. I'm not shocked the he is stepping down, or that others in the organization appear to have applied substantial pressure on him to do so, but it makes me sad. Their statements about supporting freedom of speech are hollow:…

There's a difference between expressing an opinion, and actively working to establish legal and social policy.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#256

Post by Aloisius » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 7:45 PM UTC

andrewpi wrote: post #211

dopamean wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with you but I think the problem here is that being against gay marriage is more than just a "political view." Being for low taxes is a political view. Being for smaller government is a political view. Believing a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like other simply because of who they love is not a political view. It reads as extremely hateful and that makes people uncomforta…

So Barack Obama, the President of the US, was against gay marriage in 2008; I'm confused as to why he gets a pass here, but the head of Mozilla doesn't?

He evolved. Brendan did not.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#257

Post by e40 » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 7:46 PM UTC

daveqr wrote: post #79

IanDrake wrote: post #42

To me this is a win for freedom of speech and free markets. You're free to express your close minded opinion, but the market is free to reject it and you.

This was the opposite of a win for freedom of speech.

"Freedom of speech is the political right to communicate one's opinions and ideas using one's body and property to anyone who is willing to receive them."

How was that taken away from him? The freedom of speech doesn't include the ability to hold onto a specific job when you exercise your speech rights. That idea is downright silly.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#258

Post by thinkpad20 » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 7:46 PM UTC

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #183

akerl_ wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have considered him a worse person if he'd done that. I disagree with his opinions on marriage, but he has the right to have those opinions, and to provide support for causes he believes in. I'm not shocked the he is stepping down, or that others in the organization appear to have applied substantial pressure on him to do so, but it makes me sad. Their statements about supporting freedom of speech are hollow:…

Ironically, though, his opinion was supported by the majority in that California election: 7 million to 6.4 million in favor of Prop 8. I guess if they consider any other candidates for CEO from California, they'll have to ask them how they voted.

The majority that voted. Those in favor were more likely to go out and vote than those opposed. Many of the opinion polls showed that more people were opposed, but clearly not enough of them actually went to the ballot.

Either way, I'm confident that the same measure today would have a snowball's chance in hell of passage.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#259

Post by mkr-hn » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 7:46 PM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #209

dopamean wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with you but I think the problem here is that being against gay marriage is more than just a "political view." Being for low taxes is a political view. Being for smaller government is a political view. Believing a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like other simply because of who they love is not a political view. It reads as extremely hateful and that makes people uncomforta…

I support legalizing gay marriage. But two things, first, supporting prop 8 does not mean you "believe a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like others." It means you don't believe that the government should recognize same sex marriages as marriages. There are a large gradient of views here, and on one extreme are the bigots who hate homosexuals and on the other there are people who simply have…

He had the opportunity to clarify which of these views he held. He chose to step down and leave us to speculate instead.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#260

Post by sanxiyn » Thu, Apr 03, 2014, 7:46 PM UTC

akerl_ wrote: post #123

sanxiyn wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this showed Eich is insufficiently dedicated to Mozilla's mission. If Eich believed he can help Mozilla's mission by being a CEO (otherwise, why bother?), is lying about an issue more important than how much you could help Mozilla's mission? Utilitarian 101. On the other hand, Eich probably didn't make such utilitarian calculation, and followed "do not lie" deontology instead. Pity.

"Do not lie" is a pretty great attribute of character. Lying to keep your position is pretty much the opposite.

Sure, not lying is great, it builds trust, yada yada.

On the other hand, imagine you have two choices. You can either lie, or Google Chrome achieves 90% market share, all of web runs on Pepper, and there is no more open web. (Let's call this world "Google Earth".) Mozilla's mission is to prevent such world, right? Do you seriously think not lying is the right thing to do in this case?

Now imagine you have choices of lying and making Google Earth 10% more likely.

Now imagine you have choices of lying and making Google Earth 1% more likely.

How much Google Earth worth is not lying? Eich probably believed him being CEO is worth some reduction in probability of Google Earth. I would be surprised "not lying" has more utility than such probability reduction. I conclude he didn't decide not to lie because of utilitarian calculation.