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Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

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Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#331

Post by matthewmacleod »

muyuu wrote: post #300
matthewmacleod wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eich made a mistake when he supported prop 8. He actively avoided apologising for his support of prop 8 – a law which is directly opposed to the values of Mozilla as an organisation. Had he done so, I suspect there would have been much less backlash.

Why should he apologise if he believes he's in the right? That's just pushing hypocrisy.

If he firmly held the belief, and did not change his mind, then he shouldn't apologise. In that case, it's legitimate to complain about his personal views where they are not compatible with his position.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#332

Post by thrownaway2424 »

gfodor wrote: post #209
dopamean wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with you but I think the problem here is that being against gay marriage is more than just a "political view." Being for low taxes is a political view. Being for smaller government is a political view. Believing a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like other simply because of who they love is not a political view. It reads as extremely hateful and that makes people uncomforta…

I support legalizing gay marriage. But two things, first, supporting prop 8 does not mean you "believe a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like others." It means you don't believe that the government should recognize same sex marriages as marriages. There are a large gradient of views here, and on one extreme are the bigots who hate homosexuals and on the other there are people who simply have…

Support for Prop 8 has a huge age gradient, as does anti-homosexuality in general. Support for Prop 8 falls by about 0.75% per year Ages 18-24 voted overwhelmingly against it. 65+ voted overwhelmingly for it. Old people hate gays. Young people don't.

Support for Prop 8 among young people in the SF Bay Area is negligible. These are the people Eich was supposed to lead as CEO of Mozilla. You can't lead people who think you are a reprehensible bigot.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#333

Post by InclinedPlane »

nostrademons wrote: post #199
danpalmer wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think 'integrity' in the face of an opinion that is becoming more and more unacceptable to hold in our culture is a good thing. Changing your views, and admitting you were wrong is the best thing you can do.

This line of reasoning is very troubling to me, because 20 years ago it was pretty much unacceptable in the U.S. to hold the opinion that gays were entitled to full legal rights, let alone the ability to marry. That changed only because some very courageous people stuck their neck out, weathered all the flack and negative personal repercussions towards themselves, and gradually made the point of "Why not?" I fully su…

This is just moral relativism and reductionist analysis. It's easy to frame problems in a light where it's impossible to make an objective judgment. This is like saying that violence is wrong. Sure, in the abstract, but in practice there's an objective difference between the use of violence for oppression, personal gain, and domination and the use of violence as self-defense.

Let's go to first principles here. Which, for America at least, come down to equality and liberty. Principles enshrined in the founding documents of this country. Oppressing people because of their sexual orientation is not a neutral proposition in regards to those principles, it is very much an exception to the principles of equality and liberty.

The two scenarios you describe are NOT and have never been symmetrical.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#334

Post by evan_ »

sanxiyn wrote: post #101
nostrademons wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It speaks a lot to his integrity that he didn't. Would you rather have a CEO who says one thing in public and then goes and does another thing surreptitiously, or one who stands up for his beliefs even when they're unpopular?

I think this showed Eich is insufficiently dedicated to Mozilla's mission. If Eich believed he can help Mozilla's mission by being a CEO (otherwise, why bother?), is lying about an issue more important than how much you could help Mozilla's mission? Utilitarian 101. On the other hand, Eich probably didn't make such utilitarian calculation, and followed "do not lie" deontology instead. Pity.

Another thing he could do is instead of lying, just change his mind and apologize

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#335

Post by prutschman »

MrZongle2 wrote: post #233
IanDrake wrote: post #42

To me this is a win for freedom of speech and free markets. You're free to express your close minded opinion, but the market is free to reject it and you.

To me this is a win for freedom of speech How exactly was this a win for Eich's freedom of speech?

If being CEO is a prerequisite to having freedom of speech then free speech is worth very little in practice. If it's not, then he has not lost his freedom of speech.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#336

Post by cshenoy »

cousin_it wrote: post #244
adamwong246 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Freedom of Speech" does not mean "Freedom from the Consequences of your Speech."

No, freedom of speech means exactly that people shouldn't be punished for speech. What else could it possibly mean?

I guess the Freedom of Speech many refer to is from the US Constitution which means the government cannot restrict (to certain extents) what you say or your right to believe what you are saying. Your views (in speech or whatever medium you prefer) will definitely be judged by others. It's a bit silly to assume you can't be punished (diminutive or otherwise) for the freedom to speak (your mind).

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#338

Post by thrownaway2424 »

andrewpi wrote: post #211
dopamean wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with you but I think the problem here is that being against gay marriage is more than just a "political view." Being for low taxes is a political view. Being for smaller government is a political view. Believing a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like other simply because of who they love is not a political view. It reads as extremely hateful and that makes people uncomforta…

So Barack Obama, the President of the US, was against gay marriage in 2008; I'm confused as to why he gets a pass here, but the head of Mozilla doesn't?

Obama presides over a nation who are basically split on the issue. Eich was the CEO of an organization, members of which are overwhelmingly in favor.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#339

Post by yawboakye »

cmelbye wrote: post #118
DangerousPie wrote: post #45

I am a strong supporter of gay marriage, but I have to say that I find this very unfortunate and worrying. Apparently many Mozilla supporters seem to think it is okay to bully a qualified person out of his job only for his political views, even if they had absolutely no effect on his qualification or his actions on the job. I can't help but feel like this campaign has done a lot more harm to him than his $1000 donati…

Mozilla is perhaps a special case. In other organizations, I might understand that argument. To me, it feels like a case of cognitive dissonance when the organization promotes free speech, free expression, etc., while its CEO donates to organizations which restrict it. (Whether or not one agrees with that is besides the point. Mozilla's board does, which is what matters with this decision.)

Can we say he was empowered by Mozilla's culture to pursue his political view with a passion same as LGBTQ employees of Mozilla would? When did being homophobic become the wrong view to have?

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#340

Post by baddox »

ameen wrote: post #169
akerl_ wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have considered him a worse person if he'd done that. I disagree with his opinions on marriage, but he has the right to have those opinions, and to provide support for causes he believes in. I'm not shocked the he is stepping down, or that others in the organization appear to have applied substantial pressure on him to do so, but it makes me sad. Their statements about supporting freedom of speech are hollow:…

Freedom of speech is to be exercised only for populist opinions. If we continue to travel down this path, we'd all have the same opinions, as anyone who dares to hold an different opinion than the majority would be ostracized from the society.

Human society seems quite capable of forming isolated regions (usually geographic, but also online) where a certain belief can prosper despite it being opposed in other regions.
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