America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem • Hacker News Board

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#121

Post by jcalvinowens » Tue, Mar 18, 2014, 3:52 AM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #110

jcalvinowens wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actually, you have to use heroin regularly for months to become physiologically addicted. I don't think I'm remiss in saying that most who start using heroin do in fact get to that point, am I? > These substances are appropriately packed, abundantly labeled with warnings — but their use is not banned. Comparing sulphuric acid to heroin is a huge stretch for me. Sure, injecting sulphuric acid into your arm is defini…

Though I don't have any stats ready on how many heroin users end up as addicts that actually hurt their health, and how many recover later, you don't seem to have it either. Before we have some kind of numbers, I don't think discussing this can lead anywhere constructive. I'm pretty sure that most users of nicotine (as smoked tobacco or in electronic cigarettes) get physiologically addicted pretty quickly, and in a p…

> Quite a few over-the-counter drugs can kill you, or at least severely cripple you, if used improperly. Do you think outlawing them is a good idea?

No, of course I don't: making something illegal because it is dangerous when misused or used contrary to its intended purpose is silly. I'm not arguing that.

What I am arguing is that a substance that is created to be used in a specific manner, and causes known substantial harm when used in that manner should not be tolerated by society.

That's what a cigarette is: it's this thing that is made to be used in a way that has been shown without a shadow of a doubt to contribute to many fatal ailments in a major way.

I put heroin and meth in that category: dangerously addictive substances that are known to cause substantial harm when used as intended.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#122

Post by wisty » Tue, Mar 18, 2014, 4:03 AM UTC

brc wrote: post #73

gnaritas wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Complaints down 88%, use of force down 60% Which really just shows how much better cops behave when they know they're being watched and justifies complaints about their corruption.

It would also be a drop in spurious complaints which have no merit. If there is recorded evidence, and the potential complainant knows that exists, then they are less likely to make things up. Many of the people who deal with police on a frequent basis are skilled liars. They know how to stymie investigations by tying the officers up in paperwork. Having video evidence would prevent spurious complaints.

It will also make people less stressed when dealing with cops (as they know the cop will behave well), and it will discourage people from resisting arrest / attacking the police, because they know they'll be caught on camera.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#123

Post by LeapingLennie » Tue, Mar 18, 2014, 4:35 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #94

baddox wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tax evasion hurts society as a whole by reducing available resources for the programs that aid our country That argument only works if taxation provides a net benefit to society.

> That argument only works if taxation provides a net benefit to society. How about this one then: At any given level of government spending and borrowing, tax evasion requires higher taxes to be imposed on those not engaged in tax evasion.

That is making the assumption that government spending is constant irrespective of tax revenue. If tax rates and public debt remain constant then tax avoidance will lead government spending to fall. This may mean fewer immoral actions conducted by the government such as wars or arresting people for victimless crimes. In this way, tax evasion can be not only harmless but a moral imperative.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#124

Post by runako » Tue, Mar 18, 2014, 4:37 AM UTC

btown wrote: post #50

girvo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it a tough job? You bet. Are they unfairly vilified? Not a chance: police should be held to a higher moral standard than the general public, as they're the ones enforcing it. The best part of them wearing a GoPro is that everyone wins: civilians get to feel much safer, and police get to show that they're not as bad as they're made out to be. The issue arises when the cops have that introduced, and accusations of e…

I largely agree, but to act as a devil's advocate, what about cases when a police officer needs to resort to more heavy-handed methods when their life is in danger? In a dangerous area, a camera cannot capture the entire environment that a police officer must take in, contextual clues to a possibly dangerous situation drawn from a career of near brushes with disaster. So you might see corner cases where a police offi…

>> cases when a police officer needs to resort to more heavy-handed methods when their life is in danger

The accused have a moral right to have a jury decide what was appropriate for the officer to do in a given situation. Keeping the data private by its nature detracts from the goal of having a fair judicial system.

NB: to your read, the laws may need to be adjusted to allow officers to legally be more brutal to people who have not been convicted of crimes. That does not change the fact that police work should be able to be done in the light. Nobody benefits when police to feel like they don't have to become criminals to do their jobs.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#125

Post by daenz » Tue, Mar 18, 2014, 4:47 AM UTC

Yaa101 wrote: post #69

DerpDerpDerp wrote: post #2

And maybe we could do something about our policing problem at the same time... What, with using national (military) spying apparatus to go after drug dealers, police seizing assets from private citizens who they often don't accuse of a crime, the rampant militarization of domestic police forces... Well, it's nice to dream.

It's a dream to think that law was enacted to put an end to those kinds of troubles. Law is made by the representatives to keep the problems in tact for various reasons by various people in the chain. Politicians do not want to solve all problems and find out that since they solved the problems, they are not needed anymore. The military and arms industrial complex certainly do not want to solve the problems, if they…

That's a very black and white view of the world. I agree with many of your points though, that many problems are more profitable unsolved. However, many laws indeed have a basis in some (possibly twisted) form of morality (preventative or punitive).

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#126

Post by bermanoid » Tue, Mar 18, 2014, 4:54 AM UTC

thesimpsons1022 wrote: post #115

gnaritas wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could make the same argument about violence by talking about mental abuse. And as I said, morals are already involved, these crimes exist because of morals, not because they hurt people. The fact is, victimless is as easy to define as violence is or easy enough to have a pretty clear line. Consuming drugs hurts no one but the consumer. Having 5 wives hurts no one as long as they all consented. Gambling your own mon…

I agree with you but I feel like playing devils advocate. >drugs hurt no one else what about the family of the abuser? should a child grow up in the home of a heroin addict? doesn't society have the responsibility to protect children? >gambling humans are just dumb monkeys. we have psychological weaknesses to stuff like gambling. how many fathers will gamble away their grocery money? >5 wives is it really consent if…

If you allow widespread polygamy, degenerate gamblers and addicts won't tend to attract many wives, and will generally have far fewer children.. Boom, fewer children stuck with problematic non-providing parents. Thanks, market forces!

Devil's advocate back at ya.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#127

Post by arg01 » Tue, Mar 18, 2014, 5:16 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #88

arg01 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd assume you do agree that excessive speeding constitutes a crime as a it raises the chances of inflicting injury on others. If there was a statistical link between a drug and increasing the chance of the user committing violence would you still consider drugs victimless? I raise the point as someone who is quite happy to support marijuana and alcohol use, but believe the definition of victimless is not an easy one…

> I'd assume you do agree that excessive speeding constitutes a crime as a it raises the chances of inflicting injury on others. That is a poor assumption. The government is incompetent (and corrupt) to choose what course of action best manages risk. The better answer is to make people (and their insurance carriers) liable for the damage they actually cause. If you drive too fast and kill someone, you should be liabl…

How do we estimate a fair market price on what the average person is willing to be paid to be hit? Let's not forget to price in what people would accept for you taking away a loved one through reckless behaviour. I'd hazard in a lot of cases the cost they would settle for given a choice would be your blood. Maybe a fair market value considering this fact is your time in jail.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#128

Post by gnaritas » Tue, Mar 18, 2014, 5:31 AM UTC

agapos wrote: post #102

gnaritas wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I meant what I said. Victimeless, and no it's not at all hard to define. Drugs, sex, gambling, bigamy, etc; basically laws based on Christian morality that try and tell you it's wrong to do things that only involve consenting adults. Non-violent is another category, but I agree with you on that category, prison should be for the violent.

Drugs? Victimless? You may want to ask the Mexicans about that. The way I see, drug usage as an act itself may be victimless (though highly unlikely), but the way it reaches it's costumers is sure as hell isn't.

Those problems are not created by the drugs, you need to stop falling for this propaganda. Those problems are created by the laws against drugs. Legalize and those problems evaporate, buy your drugs from the pharmacy.

Prohibition creates crime, this is well known, and a lesson we should have learned with alcohol and gangsters.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#129

Post by gnaritas » Tue, Mar 18, 2014, 5:39 AM UTC

jcalvinowens wrote: post #121

nine_k wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though I don't have any stats ready on how many heroin users end up as addicts that actually hurt their health, and how many recover later, you don't seem to have it either. Before we have some kind of numbers, I don't think discussing this can lead anywhere constructive. I'm pretty sure that most users of nicotine (as smoked tobacco or in electronic cigarettes) get physiologically addicted pretty quickly, and in a p…

> Quite a few over-the-counter drugs can kill you, or at least severely cripple you, if used improperly. Do you think outlawing them is a good idea? No, of course I don't: making something illegal because it is dangerous when misused or used contrary to its intended purpose is silly. I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is that a substance that is created to be used in a specific manner, and causes known substanti…

You've confused drug use with drug abuse. You've demonized recreational drug use and decided people shouldn't be allowed to decide for themselves what they put in their own bodies. You are the reason we're having this ridiculous drug war and you are the problem with this country.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#130

Post by gnaritas » Tue, Mar 18, 2014, 5:43 AM UTC

jcalvinowens wrote: post #70

gnaritas wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, first, leave children out of this discussion. That's a play on emotions and doesn't belong in a discussion about what consenting adults should or shouldn't be allowed to do. As with all things children related, we can have different laws for them; giving children drugs is victimizing them as they're not capable of making those choices legally or emotionally. Now, to your point. No one forced anyone to try drugs;…

> OK, first, leave children out of this discussion. That's a play on emotions I'm not meaning to play emotions; however, I don't think you can just write it off: if all drugs were legalized, you would see use among youth increase (just as you would likely see an increase in any other subset of the population). > If you choose to put something in your body, that's a choice, you were not victimized by anyone. For me, v…

Then offer medical help, but outlawing drugs is a failed solution and that applies to all drugs. Prohibition creates more problems than it solves and it makes the state an enemy of its own citizens. Prohibition doesn't work, it does not work.

That uneasy feeling is called cognitive dissonance, you're realizing the propaganda you've been fed is wrong but you haven't yet accepted its complete failure even though you know it intellectually.