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America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

theatlantic.com

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Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#71

Post by gnaritas »

arg01 wrote: post #66
gnaritas wrote: post #3

America has a prison industrial complex and corrupt justice system problem. There wouldn't be black markets for drugs if we stopped jailing people for victimless crimes to begin with. No victimless crime should result in criminal charges. Going to jail should never be a possibility when there's no victim.

I'd assume you do agree that excessive speeding constitutes a crime as a it raises the chances of inflicting injury on others. If there was a statistical link between a drug and increasing the chance of the user committing violence would you still consider drugs victimless? I raise the point as someone who is quite happy to support marijuana and alcohol use, but believe the definition of victimless is not an easy one…

Raising the chances of is not at all the same as happened. Excessive speeding can be a civil violation punishable by fines, not jail. Civil infraction != crime.

> If there was a statistical link between a drug and increasing the chance of the user committing violence would you still consider drugs victimless

Yes I would. Consuming drugs never creates a victim, that is an indisputable fact, you cannot victimize yourself. If you commit violence against another person, that's already illegal and already punishable and is a crime regardless of why you did it.

Drug use is not drug abuse and we don't need pre-crime in our world. Punish people who actually do the bad things, not those who might do something bad, otherwise we should start locking up all poor people because they might statistically commit more crimes than the rich. This is a dangerous line of thinking.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#72

Post by jcalvinowens »

pstuart wrote: post #57
jcalvinowens wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Drugs, sex, gambling, bigamy, etc; basically laws based on Christian morality I'm curious what you say to the argument that manufacturing and profiting off extremely addictive and harmful drugs (ie meth or heroin) is a victumful crime? Many people get "hooked" on drugs like this, and it often ruins them both physiologically and financially. How can you justify ignoring such people as victims? Especially if they wer…

> extremely addictive and harmful drugs Like alcohol? Should we make it illegal again to protect its victims?

> Like alcohol? Should we make it illegal again to protect its victims?

It is very possible to use alcohol recreationally without becoming physically dependent on it.

You can't say the same for drugs like heroin or meth.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#73

Post by brc »

gnaritas wrote: post #32
bjdixon wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This exactly. Really tough and often thankless job. As shown in Rialto everybody wins when the police wear cameras. Complaints down 88%, use of force down 60% http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/04/california-poli...

> Complaints down 88%, use of force down 60% Which really just shows how much better cops behave when they know they're being watched and justifies complaints about their corruption.

It would also be a drop in spurious complaints which have no merit. If there is recorded evidence, and the potential complainant knows that exists, then they are less likely to make things up.

Many of the people who deal with police on a frequent basis are skilled liars. They know how to stymie investigations by tying the officers up in paperwork. Having video evidence would prevent spurious complaints.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#74

Post by gnaritas »

brc wrote: post #73
gnaritas wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Complaints down 88%, use of force down 60% Which really just shows how much better cops behave when they know they're being watched and justifies complaints about their corruption.

It would also be a drop in spurious complaints which have no merit. If there is recorded evidence, and the potential complainant knows that exists, then they are less likely to make things up. Many of the people who deal with police on a frequent basis are skilled liars. They know how to stymie investigations by tying the officers up in paperwork. Having video evidence would prevent spurious complaints.

> It would also be a drop in spurious complaints which have no merit.

Fair point. However, I was a cop, and I know better than to trust cops.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#75

Post by jcalvinowens »

MaysonL wrote: post #56
jcalvinowens wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Drugs, sex, gambling, bigamy, etc; basically laws based on Christian morality I'm curious what you say to the argument that manufacturing and profiting off extremely addictive and harmful drugs (ie meth or heroin) is a victumful crime? Many people get "hooked" on drugs like this, and it often ruins them both physiologically and financially. How can you justify ignoring such people as victims? Especially if they wer…

So, you're advocating putting cigarette manufacturers in jail? If not, why not?

Hell yes. For life.

That we as a society allow groups of men to make billions selling a tremendously addictive product that has unequivocally been shown to kill its users is, for me, absolutely heinous.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#76

Post by baddox »

gnaritas wrote: post #64
abcabc321321123 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>stealing from your fellow citizens who are paying their taxes. You are confusing who is stealing from whom.

No I'm really not; taxes are perfectly constitutional. Call it theft if you like but you're just being ridiculous.

Theft existed before the constitution, and the constitution didn't change what it means.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#78

Post by ianferrel »

gnaritas wrote: post #71
arg01 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd assume you do agree that excessive speeding constitutes a crime as a it raises the chances of inflicting injury on others. If there was a statistical link between a drug and increasing the chance of the user committing violence would you still consider drugs victimless? I raise the point as someone who is quite happy to support marijuana and alcohol use, but believe the definition of victimless is not an easy one…

Raising the chances of is not at all the same as happened. Excessive speeding can be a civil violation punishable by fines, not jail. Civil infraction != crime. > If there was a statistical link between a drug and increasing the chance of the user committing violence would you still consider drugs victimless Yes I would. Consuming drugs never creates a victim, that is an indisputable fact, you cannot victimize yourse…

Is there any action that is potentially dangerous enough that an instance of it in which no one happened to be harmed should be a criminal offense?

Say I walk down the street firing a gun randomly, but I don't strike anyone with a bullet. Civil remedies only?

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#79

Post by AnthonyMouse »

btown wrote: post #50
girvo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it a tough job? You bet. Are they unfairly vilified? Not a chance: police should be held to a higher moral standard than the general public, as they're the ones enforcing it. The best part of them wearing a GoPro is that everyone wins: civilians get to feel much safer, and police get to show that they're not as bad as they're made out to be. The issue arises when the cops have that introduced, and accusations of e…

I largely agree, but to act as a devil's advocate, what about cases when a police officer needs to resort to more heavy-handed methods when their life is in danger? In a dangerous area, a camera cannot capture the entire environment that a police officer must take in, contextual clues to a possibly dangerous situation drawn from a career of near brushes with disaster. So you might see corner cases where a police offi…

> I largely agree, but to act as a devil's advocate, what about cases when a police officer needs to resort to more heavy-handed methods when their life is in danger?

In those cases the safest thing for the police to do is to withdraw to a safe location and wait for backup, which is what they're supposed to do. Engaging in the sort of aggressive behavior that could be "mischaracterized" as police brutality in response to a potentially dangerous situation only serves to escalate the situation and make it even more dangerous.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#80

Post by joe_the_user »

eqdw wrote: post #38
gnaritas wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I meant what I said. Victimeless, and no it's not at all hard to define. Drugs, sex, gambling, bigamy, etc; basically laws based on Christian morality that try and tell you it's wrong to do things that only involve consenting adults. Non-violent is another category, but I agree with you on that category, prison should be for the violent.

> No, I meant what I said. Victimeless, and no it's not at all hard to define. Drugs, sex, gambling, bigamy, etc; basically laws based on Christian morality that try and tell you it's wrong to do things that only involve consenting adults. I generally agree with you, and do not at all believe Christian morality is a good basis for laws. That said, I have to play devil's advocate > Drugs In a world where the governmen…

Most people, even today, believe they own themselves rather than believing that the state owns them and they are merely paying rent on themselves.

"Victimless crime" pretty much means a voluntary act which directly harms only the actor. Sure, you point to indirect harm from the actor harming themselves. But if I fricken own myself, you cannot claim that my harming myself is any sort of crime. And the people counting on others not to harm themselves better give them an incentive not to do it rather than imposing a prohibition.

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