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America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

theatlantic.com

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Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#51

Post by Terr_ »

gnaritas wrote: post #40
eqdw wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, I meant what I said. Victimeless, and no it's not at all hard to define. Drugs, sex, gambling, bigamy, etc; basically laws based on Christian morality that try and tell you it's wrong to do things that only involve consenting adults. I generally agree with you, and do not at all believe Christian morality is a good basis for laws. That said, I have to play devil's advocate > Drugs In a world where the governmen…

> In a world where the government provides health care as a service (which is where we're trending, eventually), abusing your own health does have a victim: the taxpayer. An almost fair point... if and only if we get there, I'm not yet convinced we will, however drug use is not drug abuse. To call it a health issue it'd first have to affect your health negatively. If it does, that can be seen by the doctor and noted…

> If you choose to make decisions that hurt you, you must suffer the consequences; it is not the state's place to protect you from yourself.

1. Not ever? Surely you don't think that the age of majority/consent is 0-years-old?

2. Taxation for Military defense falls under that same umbrella! Normally, people would never pay any taxes to support it until they feel threatened... And then it's too late, and they suffer from their own short-sighted penny-pinching. Are you saying the government should not collectively protect them from their own decisions?

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#52

Post by humanrebar »

gnaritas wrote: post #46
jcalvinowens wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Drugs, sex, gambling, bigamy, etc; basically laws based on Christian morality I'm curious what you say to the argument that manufacturing and profiting off extremely addictive and harmful drugs (ie meth or heroin) is a victumful crime? Many people get "hooked" on drugs like this, and it often ruins them both physiologically and financially. How can you justify ignoring such people as victims? Especially if they wer…

OK, first, leave children out of this discussion. That's a play on emotions and doesn't belong in a discussion about what consenting adults should or shouldn't be allowed to do. As with all things children related, we can have different laws for them; giving children drugs is victimizing them as they're not capable of making those choices legally or emotionally. Now, to your point. No one forced anyone to try drugs;…

You didn't leave religion or sex out of the discussion, so getting ticked off at someone else's pandering seems a bit hypocritical.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#53

Post by gnaritas »

humanrebar wrote: post #49
eqdw wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, I meant what I said. Victimeless, and no it's not at all hard to define. Drugs, sex, gambling, bigamy, etc; basically laws based on Christian morality that try and tell you it's wrong to do things that only involve consenting adults. I generally agree with you, and do not at all believe Christian morality is a good basis for laws. That said, I have to play devil's advocate > Drugs In a world where the governmen…

> Also, ironically, bigamy is not a violation of christian morality; While the Old Testament contains many examples of polygamy, all of them are neutral or bad examples. Jesus strongly implies that a man should have one wife and Paul explicitly says so, at least for leaders of the church. From a practical standpoint, widespread polygamy (which usually means polygyny) can lead to imbalances in marriage opportunity bet…

> If tax evasion is harmful to society, polygamy is harmful to ugly, poor men.

It's less than desirable for ugly poor men, but doesn't mean victim. There is no victim involved in not being chosen as a mate by a women. If 5 women choose to marry the rich man, that's a choice between consenting adults and it harms no other party.

No one is victimized by some other people getting married, whether it's because they're gay or because they're polygamists.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#54

Post by joesmo »

test1235 wrote: post #7
samstave wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every cop should be required to were a gopro on their chest. Anyone who has any encounter with a cop should have protected rights to access and review that video as material evidence in their case.

... then maybe people will realise how unfairly vilified the police are, and what a tough job it actually is.

This is an opinion and not based on any real evidence.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#55

Post by abcabc321321123 »

gnaritas wrote: post #36
baddox wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tax evasion hurts society as a whole by reducing available resources for the programs that aid our country That argument only works if taxation provides a net benefit to society.

Tax evasion hurts society as a whole because you're free loading off the system and stealing from your fellow citizens who are paying their taxes. This argument is valid regardless of whether taxes benefit society or not.

>stealing from your fellow citizens who are paying their taxes.

You are confusing who is stealing from whom.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#56

Post by MaysonL »

jcalvinowens wrote: post #41
gnaritas wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I meant what I said. Victimeless, and no it's not at all hard to define. Drugs, sex, gambling, bigamy, etc; basically laws based on Christian morality that try and tell you it's wrong to do things that only involve consenting adults. Non-violent is another category, but I agree with you on that category, prison should be for the violent.

> Drugs, sex, gambling, bigamy, etc; basically laws based on Christian morality I'm curious what you say to the argument that manufacturing and profiting off extremely addictive and harmful drugs (ie meth or heroin) is a victumful crime? Many people get "hooked" on drugs like this, and it often ruins them both physiologically and financially. How can you justify ignoring such people as victims? Especially if they wer…

So, you're advocating putting cigarette manufacturers in jail? If not, why not?

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#57

Post by pstuart »

jcalvinowens wrote: post #41
gnaritas wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I meant what I said. Victimeless, and no it's not at all hard to define. Drugs, sex, gambling, bigamy, etc; basically laws based on Christian morality that try and tell you it's wrong to do things that only involve consenting adults. Non-violent is another category, but I agree with you on that category, prison should be for the violent.

> Drugs, sex, gambling, bigamy, etc; basically laws based on Christian morality I'm curious what you say to the argument that manufacturing and profiting off extremely addictive and harmful drugs (ie meth or heroin) is a victumful crime? Many people get "hooked" on drugs like this, and it often ruins them both physiologically and financially. How can you justify ignoring such people as victims? Especially if they wer…

> extremely addictive and harmful drugs

Like alcohol? Should we make it illegal again to protect its victims?

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#58

Post by humanrebar »

drawkbox wrote: post #43
humanrebar wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should Bernie Madoff have gone to jail? I think so. There's no way he would have worked off his debt.

There is no way to work off a debt that big. But adding 30k plus per year to that debt (probably much higher for his luxury suite) is even worse. His debt to society is being paid with more debt to society. What Bernie should have to do is work for x amount of years at a lowly job, or some job that he'd never take in life to earn back as much as he can during his sentence outside of the prison (not talking about a de…

The point isn't paying off his debt (neither are fines, by the way). The points include justice, deterrence, and rehabilitation, depending on your moral viewpoint.

Also, what you describe is basically indentured servitude, which is a pretty old-fashioned form of punishment.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#59

Post by gnaritas »

Terr_ wrote: post #51
gnaritas wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a world where the government provides health care as a service (which is where we're trending, eventually), abusing your own health does have a victim: the taxpayer. An almost fair point... if and only if we get there, I'm not yet convinced we will, however drug use is not drug abuse. To call it a health issue it'd first have to affect your health negatively. If it does, that can be seen by the doctor and noted…

> If you choose to make decisions that hurt you, you must suffer the consequences; it is not the state's place to protect you from yourself. 1. Not ever ? Surely you don't think that the age of majority/consent is 0-years-old? 2. Taxation for Military defense falls under that same umbrella! Normally, people would never pay any taxes to support it until they feel threatened... And then it's too late, and they suffer f…

> Surely you don't think that the age of majority/consent is 0-years-old?

Need I preface everything I say with "between consenting adults?"

> Taxation for Military defense falls under that same umbrella

No it doesn't because taxation isn't a la carte; it's a fictional scenario.

Re: America Has a Black-Market Problem, Not a Drug Problem

#60

Post by ignostic »

eqdw wrote: post #38
gnaritas wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I meant what I said. Victimeless, and no it's not at all hard to define. Drugs, sex, gambling, bigamy, etc; basically laws based on Christian morality that try and tell you it's wrong to do things that only involve consenting adults. Non-violent is another category, but I agree with you on that category, prison should be for the violent.

> No, I meant what I said. Victimeless, and no it's not at all hard to define. Drugs, sex, gambling, bigamy, etc; basically laws based on Christian morality that try and tell you it's wrong to do things that only involve consenting adults. I generally agree with you, and do not at all believe Christian morality is a good basis for laws. That said, I have to play devil's advocate > Drugs In a world where the governmen…

> abusing your own health does have a victim: the taxpayer.

Both this and your gambling example lead us down a very scary path where the government is in charge of your health. I hate to use words republicans use when they don't apply, but that's a nanny state at best or a 1984-style dictatorship at worst. Perhaps we shouldn't be subsidizing poor choices in the first place. In any case, there are better solutions than the use of force and criminal penalties.

As for bigamy, I think you'll agree that a historical correlation doesn't imply an inseparable causality.

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