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Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

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Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#891

Post by froo »

Borogove wrote: post #723
froo wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try getting sternly lectured for 10 minutes because because you held the door open for a stranger to be polite. That's when you know shit gotten real. For the record, I routinely hold open doors for people that I know are behind me and are leaving/entering a building. It surprised me to know end to get yelled at for it.

A woman yelled at you for holding the door for her? Really? What were you wearing? Had you been drinking that day? How long were you dating her?

Wearing regular day clothes. I dont drink. No, my current girlfriend (who identifies as a feminist) thinks the idea of yelling at someone for adhering to the social niceties is strange after I told her about the incident.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#892

Post by karmajunkie »

thefreeman wrote: post #705
karmajunkie wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not 1995 anymore. "Partner" is a perfectly correct term for any couple in a long-term relationship. I use the term "partner" quite frequently to refer to my relationship—and whether I'm gay or not, or whether Ms Horvath is so, is none of your business. You have no need, nor any inherent right, to "know what is going on."

my confusion is the term "partner" has a completely different meaning in a a business context. I am just saying that it was confusing to me. For much of the article I thought every time they said "partner" they were referring to an employee who worked with her in some sort of group or buddy system. It can also obviously mean a partial owner in the business.

well, fair enough, but the right way to indicate your confusion over that point isn't to ask whether she's a lesbian.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#893

Post by alttab »

maxcan wrote: post #882
grifpete wrote: post #755

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't pretend to have any info on what truly happened. But the story doesn't have to be 'completely accurate' for it to be disturbing. A company can't have family members browse around company offices and imposing themselves on employees with whom they have no professional or personal relationship. I find it very hard to understand how the wife's repeated presence can be favorably interpreted if it did indeed upset…

it could have been well intentioned. bringing in an pseudo-outsider may not be the smartest move but its also not necessarily evil at all. the founder may have felt that his wife could relate in some way. until more evidence is given, we should withhold judgement.

In what scenario is having an undocumented employee ok?

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#894

Post by alttab »

makomk wrote: post #856
MarkTee wrote: post #821

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not sexism; he was acting maliciously because she turned down his advances, not because she was a woman.

The fact he expected to get away with it and thought it was a reasonable thing to do has, alas, quite a lot to do with both his gender and her gender.

No, it has to do with his clear immaturity. His behavior merely justifies why he was turned down.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#895

Post by kaitai »

maxcan wrote: post #738
buro9 wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nebulous semi-employee with unspecified responsibilities related to a founder? This is the point that stands out for me. That the wife is not an employee of Github but claims to be able to access private company chat records, and also is able to "work" from within the office and interact with the staff. Even with allowances that company property remains company property and private chat rooms are in fact non-privat…

> The wife, and the husband (founder), have displayed an incredible lack of professionalism here. That assumes that the story, as told in the accusation, is completely accurate. One could envision a scenario where the founder felt his wife may be able to relate to the situation better and could actually assist the accuser. However, in spite of best intentions, its possible that the wife's actions were misinterpreted…

Professionalism would dictate that the wife not be involved even if this is the case. I don't go tell my husband's nurses that ... well, anything!

What business do I have with my husband's colleagues other than being polite at the summer barbecue and the holiday party?

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#896

Post by PhasmaFelis »

MarkTee wrote: post #821
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, the guy who declared his love for her despite knowing that she had a boyfriend, and then started sabotaging all her code when she shot him down, is very much sexist bullshit.

That's not sexism; he was acting maliciously because she turned down his advances, not because she was a woman.

...The advances that he would not have made if she were not a woman. So you're saying a man sexually harassing a woman isn't sexist?

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#897

Post by MarkTee »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #896
MarkTee wrote: post #821

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not sexism; he was acting maliciously because she turned down his advances, not because she was a woman.

...The advances that he would not have made if she were not a woman. So you're saying a man sexually harassing a woman isn't sexist?

Seeing as we don't know his sexual orientation, you don't know whether he would have made those advances if she were not a woman.

And no, a man sexually harassing a woman isn't always sexist (even though I'd imagine that in the large majority of cases sexism plays a role).

Sexual harassment ≠ Sexism

What's important to discern is the reason behind the harassment. If a man is harassing a woman because he views his gender as superior to hers, or that she's nothing more than a sexual object, then that's a pretty clear-cut case of sexism. But if a man acts inappropriately towards someone because he lacks self control/tact, has poor social skills, etc. and is only targeting that person because he's attracted to them, then it's sexual harassment.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#898

Post by kaitai »

johnbm wrote: post #847
jessedhillon wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it might bother you because the author assumes that's his own inability to navigate complex social relationships is innate to his maleness. In fact, many men are adept at understanding social and emotional subtexts very well. There's no magnitude-order difference in innate ability as described, or if there is, it's not a permanent, unlearnable gulf. This comment bothered me because OP is fetishizing and token…

See, the problem is that the people who complain about this are also the ones who say it's valuable to add women to a group of men (or indeed the reverse), because it results in more balanced decision making. It can't be both. Either men or women are (as groups, i.e. averages) innately differ on the social vs analytical axis, and diversity is a net plus, or gender is entirely socially constructed, and adding women to…

What about simply having different experiences?

Stupid analogy: I hate it that only tall people seem to design store displays of pants. Remarkably, tall people don't seem to notice that putting the small sizes on the top shelves and the larger sizes lower does not make sense. It's because they have a different experience of reaching for things on shelves. Height diversity, though, makes for a better user experience.

It is true in my stupid analogy that tall people and short people do have genetic differences, as on average they innately differ in height. But it is not their innate genetic traits that makes these tall people ignorant both on the social and analytical axes when designing store displays.

Or is it? Hm....

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#899

Post by drawkbox »

glibgil wrote: post #624
buro9 wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nebulous semi-employee with unspecified responsibilities related to a founder? This is the point that stands out for me. That the wife is not an employee of Github but claims to be able to access private company chat records, and also is able to "work" from within the office and interact with the staff. Even with allowances that company property remains company property and private chat rooms are in fact non-privat…

I love github, but toxic cultures can happen anywhere. Github employees have been involved in commit abuse since the beginning https://web.archive.org/web/20130117043748/http://sheddingbi...

You've gotta love Zed A. Shaw, he is an entertaining truth cannon (and a great programmer).

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#900

Post by thefreeman »

karmajunkie wrote: post #892
thefreeman wrote: post #705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my confusion is the term "partner" has a completely different meaning in a a business context. I am just saying that it was confusing to me. For much of the article I thought every time they said "partner" they were referring to an employee who worked with her in some sort of group or buddy system. It can also obviously mean a partial owner in the business.

well, fair enough, but the right way to indicate your confusion over that point isn't to ask whether she's a lesbian.

Is it the word "lesbian"? I apologize if that is considered offensive. I spent some time trying to think of what the most appropriate term would be, and I really couldn't think of anything better. What is the politically correct term to use?
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