Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit • Hacker News Board

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#561

Post by greenrd » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 3:18 PM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #445

jessaustin wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Evil Coder sends an email to Noble Coder describing the vendetta-motivated reversions, then sure, something might happen. When would it ever be so obvious, however? If this is done quietly, and Noble happens to work in different parts of the codebase every cycle, she might not even realize the reversions have occurred for a few cycles. Even then, many people would assume there was some fair-minded rationale the fi…

Hmm. I suppose that's a disadvantage of having a less formal code-review process, compared to one in which the reverter would have to specify a reason for each reversion, making it easier to detect spurious reversions.

You'd think that a site like GitHub would have mandated code review for all commits by now. Especially after that time a few years ago when they managed to accidentally delete all the pull requests in the entire site, or something like that!

Wait, they're a ruby shop, they don't even believe in letting the compiler help you avoid making basic mistakes. dons flame-retardant suit

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#562

Post by kyberias » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 3:19 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #73

zby wrote: post #36

What a mess! But it looks like sexism was not the number one problem.

The coworker who thought she was an opportunity, and the failure to discipline that coworker, definitely is sexism.

I'm confused. Are you sure you know what sexism means?

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#563

Post by lucisferre » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 3:20 PM UTC

dannypgh wrote: post #543

einhverfr wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The founder's wife story also reminds me of episodes I've heard involving the wife cabal. It's nothing as sinister as the GitHub story, but I see a lot of the same structural issues reflected in these telling anecdotes. If you are male and a founder, one of your most valuable business resources is your wife. People will call me sexist for saying this, I expect, but women think socially with a level of complexity th…

If your spouse is helping contribute to the business on that level, you should hire them. Otherwise you're really doing a disservice to everyone by having your spouse work without compensation or recognition.

This is important. Uncertain why it would be downvoted. Please people, at least state your reasoning.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#564

Post by gcoguiec » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 3:20 PM UTC

jaydz wrote: post #33

A really bizarre story.

yep...

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#565

Post by mark_l_watson » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 3:23 PM UTC

I believe JAH's story. I hope she gets another great job and puts this behind her.

On a related issue, github plays a central role in the software development world, and possible signs of internal problems is troubling. It would be a good idea for the github management to properly address this story.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#566

Post by vezzy-fnord » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 3:23 PM UTC

alxjrvs wrote: post #508

rimantas wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not alone. I blame PC, overprotective upbringing and "I am offended by that" trend. As soon as some subject becomes taboo to discuss people lose the understanding why something is bad and start to treat everything related as bad and unacceptable. Reminds me of this: http://i.snag.gy/kdu77.jpg (doesn't matter if experiment was real or not). This is very prominent with sexism and racism—these words are losing t…

"PC, overprotective upbringing, and I'm offended by that" are not some new horrible plague - they are attempts to let underprivileged voices and opinions survive. When a black person says that they are proud to be black, they are expressing that they feel a certain pride in their race, which exists in this country thus far as a marginalized and underprivileged set of humanity. Saying you are "Proud to be white" kind…

Judging by your comment history, you do appear to have internalized your ideology very thoroughly.

But, no. First of all, your example is biased towards Western society. Expressing white pride in an Eastern Asian society would be absolutely fine, according to your logic.

Here's the issue, however. Even though black people have been historically marginalized in the USA (as I'm implicitly assuming this is US-centric) and still face disadvantages, despite being largely equal in most facets, this does not make their racial pride any less "asshole"-ish.

Pride is reserved for things once has accomplished, not ones that you're inherently born with. Just by that alone, racial pride is frivolous.

Even further, by setting up this double standard, you are actually contributing to the extension of racism. Why? You're giving people carte blanche to keep focusing more and more on racial characteristics as being essential to them as people.

"It's bad to be racist, but we still must be preoccupied with race and being inoffensive at all costs."

That is only slowing progress down. You go from a society that is maddeningly obsessed with race as a way to persecute people they don't understand to a society that is maddeningly obsessed with a race as a way to kiss ass, idolize and never question those majestic black people who can clearly do no wrong and deserve to have double standards because they have suffered injustices throughout their history.

Yet so have all races and cultures, honestly. Black people do not hold a monopoly on persecution.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#567

Post by moron4hire » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 3:24 PM UTC

marincounty wrote: post #548

einhverfr wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The founder's wife story also reminds me of episodes I've heard involving the wife cabal. It's nothing as sinister as the GitHub story, but I see a lot of the same structural issues reflected in these telling anecdotes. If you are male and a founder, one of your most valuable business resources is your wife. People will call me sexist for saying this, I expect, but women think socially with a level of complexity th…

I guess I'm too jaded, but I question getting married. If you hit the lottery and you become a successful Founder, your wife will own 1/2 of all those aching hours sitting in front of that screen. If she's the type of chick that will stick with you when you loose everything and work the paint booth at HD, by all means marry her, but those women just don't exist anymore. Women look at men so differently than we judge…

You couldn't be more wrong. If you don't know any women who treat their spouses as other people, who have ups and downs, women who can't take "for richer or for poorer" seriously, then you're in the wrong social circles.

Hell, my wife has offered to let me quit my job, where I make nearly twice as much as her (her electrical engineering salary would be enough to get us by), just so I can work on art full time, because she knows it will make me happier. I haven't, yet, because I also want her to be happy and I'm not so unhappy with my work yet that I can't earn us some more savings and hopefully make an exit for both of us.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#568

Post by nailer » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 3:24 PM UTC

alxjrvs wrote: post #508

rimantas wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not alone. I blame PC, overprotective upbringing and "I am offended by that" trend. As soon as some subject becomes taboo to discuss people lose the understanding why something is bad and start to treat everything related as bad and unacceptable. Reminds me of this: http://i.snag.gy/kdu77.jpg (doesn't matter if experiment was real or not). This is very prominent with sexism and racism—these words are losing t…

"PC, overprotective upbringing, and I'm offended by that" are not some new horrible plague - they are attempts to let underprivileged voices and opinions survive. When a black person says that they are proud to be black, they are expressing that they feel a certain pride in their race, which exists in this country thus far as a marginalized and underprivileged set of humanity. Saying you are "Proud to be white" kind…

> because white people have crafted a society to let them have more advantage.

Thinking of 'white' as a single group of people who are always middle class is a fantastically ignorant thing to do.

Does the white kid whose parents are Ukrainian janitors deserves a leg up less than the black kid whose parents are an English professor and a photographer?

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#569

Post by devnonymous » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 3:24 PM UTC

gametheoretic wrote: post #277

devnonymous wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"To be 100% honest, I have that thought every single time I read any article or newspaper report about a shootout or burglary in the community. If people with a white bloodline are statistically less likely to either rob us or get us labelled racists jerks in the press, than that's who we're hirig." -- do you now see what's wrong with this kind of thinking ?

No, because I read 1000x times more of the one than of the other, and I personally see and experience one and not the other. That you'd even bring up the comparison makes me think you're not taking this seriously, as a reality to deal with and not an internet crusade. Read the statement again. I'm not laying blame on any party. I am only taking the position that whatever the cause is , I don't know any better than an…

I guess the point I was trying to make was lost on you somehow.

I wasn't trying to say this is the exact same thing and that racism is something you'd hear about as frequently as sexism these days ! I was trying to make the parallel that just a few decades ago it would've been a perfectly acceptable thing to play it safe and say ".. than that's who we're hirig." based purely on this kind of skewed reasoning about races.

The reason you hear more about women bringing up these issues is because more women are bringing up these issues, which until recently were either non-existent (because there weren't as many women in tech), or were ignored/hushed or 'dealt with quietly' -- much like race issues ...or for that matter general quality issues between the sexes. The reason you "...personally see and experience one and not the other." is precisely because the other (ie: racism) was brought up ...repeatedly ...dirt was kicked up ...fingers pointed ...positions defended ...often under the guise of 'ah well, this issue isn't about being racists as much as it is about the individuals'. In the end though, most people 'got it'. Hopefully you now see the parallel I was trying to make.

About your statement " That you'd even bring up the comparison makes me think you're not taking this seriously, as a reality to deal with and not an internet crusade." ..well, I personally feel this is a very serious matter and if you got any other impression from what I said, it possibly is due to my inability to get the point across.

About your statement "Read the statement again. I'm not laying blame on any party. I am only taking the position that whatever the cause is, I don't know any better than anyone else how to avoid it." ...I'm sorry, I really don't see how the 'I don't know any better than anyone else how to avoid it.' bit is supposed to be implied by " then that's who we're hiring." bit ...maybe my comprehension skills are lacking although I suspect they aren't and you're just trying to somehow deflect your earlier statement by misdirection.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#570

Post by kyberias » Sun, Mar 16, 2014, 3:26 PM UTC

Udo wrote: post #413

anthonyshort wrote: post #181

Probably worth mentioning that the hula hoop dancing happened at a Github party with a lot of people not from Github. It was also super badass hula hooping, not just regular dancing. Everyone was looking, men and women, because it was pretty awesome.

This info makes the last item of the article even more bizarre. I'm starting to think this was reported inaccurately by TC. Maybe she was really referring to a separate incident that happened at the hula dancing event, an incident we don't have any information about. Otherwise, this makes no sense.

It makes all the sense when you consider the possibility that she might be a person that specifically collects even the smallest pieces of evidence to support her theories of sexism and bigotry in the workplace.