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Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

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Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#261

Post by devnonymous »

gametheoretic wrote: post #189
patrickg_zill wrote: post #27

Some geeky types will be tempted, upon founding a startup, to thus not have ANY women in significant roles in the company, and to keep it as guys-only as possible; outsourcing as needed and doing the other legal legwork as required to stay under the headcount (is it >50 people?) to avoid the EEOC.

I'll be more than tempted. To be 100% honest, I have that thought every single time I read any article or blog post about sexism in tech. If programmers with a Y-chromosome are exponentially less likely to either sue us or get us labelled sexist jerks in the press, then that's who we're hiring.

"To be 100% honest, I have that thought every single time I read any article or newspaper report about a shootout or burglary in the community. If people with a white bloodline are statistically less likely to either rob us or get us labelled racists jerks in the press, than that's who we're hirig." -- do you now see what's wrong with this kind of thinking ?

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#262

Post by chanux »

jd0 wrote: post #249
chanux wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, as a male, try to avoid staring at another female because I fear someone like Horvath accuses me of sexism. This is, sadly, the best thing to do because you don't know who is going to take offense. PS: To avoid looking one-sided and narrow (which I believe I'm not) I really feel bad about this whole situation and the lady who had to go through that. Personally liked a github as a company.

And I, as a male, try not to stare at anybody because I'm not a fucking asshole.

'Stare' is not the best word. I have to agree.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#263

Post by atomaka »

jd0 wrote: post #249
chanux wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, as a male, try to avoid staring at another female because I fear someone like Horvath accuses me of sexism. This is, sadly, the best thing to do because you don't know who is going to take offense. PS: To avoid looking one-sided and narrow (which I believe I'm not) I really feel bad about this whole situation and the lady who had to go through that. Personally liked a github as a company.

And I, as a male, try not to stare at anybody because I'm not a fucking asshole.

We bow to your perfection.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#264

Post by jd0 »

sudhirj wrote: post #26
iancarroll wrote: post #6

Until there's a second side to this my GitHub use is not going to continue. Sad to see this happen, but it's not hard to change origins on my repos to BitBucket or Gitlab. edit: and again, it's two commands to push my repo back. but i have no interest in being with github at this time

But why? Despite it's dubious origins, Github remains an excellent / superior product. One may not agree with the way they do things (and even that seems to be some, not everyone in the organization), but is that really a reason to stop using the product? https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/genetic

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#265

Post by mercurial »

lancewiggs wrote: post #250

What should Github do? My take: The founder leaves, at least for six months, and his wife has no further involvement ever. The clueless spurned programmer leaves, at very least works from home for six months or more but is preferably publicly fired. His behaviour is unacceptably unprofessional and as good as he might be it's not good enough to destroy a culture. The entire team (and many commenters here need this too…

There is always two sides to a story. That said, if what she claims is accurate, then yes. I'm not so worked up with the hulla-hooping. I'd probably "stare" at male coworkers hulla-hooping too - especially if they were doing if for show. As long as there is no suggestive comment/attempt to stuff bills in their underpants, I'm not sure where the problem is.

I also agree with the posts above saying that a change in structure is needed. After a certain size, companies are like mini-states - they need strong institutions and establish a "rule of law" via standard practices in order not to become dystopias.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#267

Post by Alphasite_ »

enneff wrote: post #209
csense wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why are you making excuses for these people? What purpose does it serve? Because I think people should question whether they're overreacting to the situation. > I'm especially shocked to see you trivialise the actions of the jilted engineer I edited to clarify this. Careful reading shows that: (1) It is possible that there were legitimate technical reasons for the reverted commits. (2) It is possible that Github di…

> I think it is difficult to say that Github is at fault from the information given, and I fear that's the conclusion that many were jumping to. Don't worry. Read the whole thread on this discussion. The only people who are jumping to conclusions are those assuming there is something wrong with Horvath's story. I have thought carefully about the article, and this is my conclusion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id…

Two things, being in power makes you more vulnerable to these things and secondly, you should second guess everyone, people look after their own interests and no one is completely reliable.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#269

Post by mercurial »

ilovecomputers wrote: post #108
csense wrote: post #64

I don't think this was an instance of institutionalized sexism. Rather, the founder's wife seems like an unbalanced individual, and nobody effectively set any boundaries. The other founders and HR seemed unaware or unable to set the situation to right. As for her romantically inclined co-worker -- I don't see how his behavior qualifies as sexist or hostile. Merely a bit clueless, but isn't it to be expected that empl…

You're missing the point. From this story alone, it seems the company is run by individuals who never mentally developed out of high school. Those incidents you mentioned are merely a red flag of the immaturity of some of these people. Awkwardly hitting on an employee to a point of discomfort, messing with someone's work cause they turned you down to a date, creepily staring at an employee in the gym; you should at l…

> creepily staring at an employee in the gym

That's not what the article says:

> The final straw for Horvath came when she saw men gawking at women who were hula-hooping at the office. [...] Two women, one of whom I work with and adore, and a friend of hers were hula hooping to some music.

Emphasis on at the office. It sounds like they were making some kind of show. While I agree that the rest of the story sounds like a massive clusterfuck, I can't understand what is supposed to be wrong in this episode.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#270

Post by watwut »

XorNot wrote: post #256
iwasphone wrote: post #19

> Horvath then told her partner, also a GitHub employee... Protip: don't dip your pen in the company ink.

Everyone says this because it sounds obviously simple. It's complete BS though. You spend 2/3'rds of your working life at work . The people you socialize, interact with and share common challenges are at work. Unless you meet your partner in college, or high school or happen to have enough time in a shared extra-curricular (which a lot of us don't ) then where exactly are you going to meet people at all. Moreover, no…

Exactly. Mature adults form relationships with other adults. There is nothing wrong or icky about it. The more time people spend at work, the more likely they are to find partner there. Note that startups often not only expect long hours of work, they also expect you to spend a lot of time socializing with colleagues.

Expecting her to reject potential stable long term relationship just because the guy has the same employer does not sound reasonable to me. Plus, we do not even know whether they started to be together before she joined the company.

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